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	<title>Comments on: Mona Rudao’s scars: epic identity in “Seediq Bale”</title>
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	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology</description>
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		<title>By: richard Zake</title>
		<link>/2012/01/01/mona-rudaos-scars/comment-page-1/#comment-743117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[richard Zake]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 02:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6451#comment-743117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks fot the academic POV of the film but from a filmmakers viewpoint Seediq Bale was far better than 300 Spartans. Both were epic tales but what makes the former less stereotypic than than the other as the definition of character, true or not, ritesof the tribes and the ever present in history that ethnic groups can be conditioned to fight each other while the rich, better educated go away laughing and profitable. I did elude to Odyssey under another thread you were on and thought that poetic license was taken in both films and is taken in almost all films. The Japanese officer near the end was a bit over the top but for the most part I found the film engaging. I do enjoy anthropology but  never pursued it and not being patronizing, I found your article very erudite and informative. I do not really care if moanu had a scar as in filmmaking we are more concerned if the shots will match in edit and the story will engage to the point where it suspends disbelief. A  phrase that further drives home the dyslexic nature of film as it take a negative to get a positive and screen direction is often  difficult to grasp for new filmmakers as one must obey a 180 degree rule where you can never cross the line of a half circle with the camera, however&#039; once you know the rules, you can break them. Something, perhaps unheard of in geometry or anthropology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks fot the academic POV of the film but from a filmmakers viewpoint Seediq Bale was far better than 300 Spartans. Both were epic tales but what makes the former less stereotypic than than the other as the definition of character, true or not, ritesof the tribes and the ever present in history that ethnic groups can be conditioned to fight each other while the rich, better educated go away laughing and profitable. I did elude to Odyssey under another thread you were on and thought that poetic license was taken in both films and is taken in almost all films. The Japanese officer near the end was a bit over the top but for the most part I found the film engaging. I do enjoy anthropology but  never pursued it and not being patronizing, I found your article very erudite and informative. I do not really care if moanu had a scar as in filmmaking we are more concerned if the shots will match in edit and the story will engage to the point where it suspends disbelief. A  phrase that further drives home the dyslexic nature of film as it take a negative to get a positive and screen direction is often  difficult to grasp for new filmmakers as one must obey a 180 degree rule where you can never cross the line of a half circle with the camera, however&#8217; once you know the rules, you can break them. Something, perhaps unheard of in geometry or anthropology.</p>
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		<title>By: darryl</title>
		<link>/2012/01/01/mona-rudaos-scars/comment-page-1/#comment-714477</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[darryl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6451#comment-714477</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Victor, do you know the ethnomusicologist Nancy Guy? She works on Taiwan, but on popular music and Chinese opera. Thanks for your explanation of aboriginal music, which I can mostly follow with my shallow background in classical music, or whatever one should call it. I like Bach and contrapuntal music in general a great deal. The music from the film is better than the music from Avatar, which I found really grating the second time I watched the film.

I’m not sure Gauguin’s primitivism was in the best sense of the term but I know what you mean. Seediq Bale is a very romantic presentation, and people who care about authenticity are divided over the film. I wrote a post on aboriginal responses, and since then I had a student, in her 40s, who is a Taiwan indigenous person - she’s Paiwanese. She said she felt proud to be aboriginal after watching the film, and she seems to me highly intelligent and self-aware. I don’t know if you will like the film, but I liked it better than almost any other primitivist film I have seen (my favorites are still Walkabout, even though it misrepresents the Australian aborigines and uses them for a kind of imaginary nostalgia, and Fitzcarraldo). The past few years in Taiwan there have been two films by indigenous directors, both deconstructive of outsider images of aborigines but at the same time intelligently “heart-warming.” The films are 十歲笛娜的願望 (the wish of the ten year old “mama”) and 不一樣的月光：尋找沙韻 (finding Sayun). I highly recommend both, though not from an ethnomusicological perspective.

I find efforts to connect the film to Taiwan identity very irritating. Identity is an overused term in Taiwan today, and it usually means someone’s playing the ethnic card instead of attending to social issues. Also, as you point out, Seediq Bale is a commercial film. If it promotes a sense of Taiwan identity it is also commercializing it. 

Suming’s a postmodern phenomenon. At least that’s how I understand him. Pop music isn’t exactly my cup of tea either. I’m mostly a language guy, and hope to have the opportunity to learn one of the aboriginal languages, maybe Seediq. I will also look into the traditional music. It’s intriguing that it’s so diverse in this part of the world. Taiwan is also linguistically very diverse, according to Bellwood. Maybe the two diversities are related. I hope to run into you at some point, Victor. Thanks for your comment and best of luck with your research.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Victor, do you know the ethnomusicologist Nancy Guy? She works on Taiwan, but on popular music and Chinese opera. Thanks for your explanation of aboriginal music, which I can mostly follow with my shallow background in classical music, or whatever one should call it. I like Bach and contrapuntal music in general a great deal. The music from the film is better than the music from Avatar, which I found really grating the second time I watched the film.</p>
<p>I’m not sure Gauguin’s primitivism was in the best sense of the term but I know what you mean. Seediq Bale is a very romantic presentation, and people who care about authenticity are divided over the film. I wrote a post on aboriginal responses, and since then I had a student, in her 40s, who is a Taiwan indigenous person &#8211; she’s Paiwanese. She said she felt proud to be aboriginal after watching the film, and she seems to me highly intelligent and self-aware. I don’t know if you will like the film, but I liked it better than almost any other primitivist film I have seen (my favorites are still Walkabout, even though it misrepresents the Australian aborigines and uses them for a kind of imaginary nostalgia, and Fitzcarraldo). The past few years in Taiwan there have been two films by indigenous directors, both deconstructive of outsider images of aborigines but at the same time intelligently “heart-warming.” The films are 十歲笛娜的願望 (the wish of the ten year old “mama”) and 不一樣的月光：尋找沙韻 (finding Sayun). I highly recommend both, though not from an ethnomusicological perspective.</p>
<p>I find efforts to connect the film to Taiwan identity very irritating. Identity is an overused term in Taiwan today, and it usually means someone’s playing the ethnic card instead of attending to social issues. Also, as you point out, Seediq Bale is a commercial film. If it promotes a sense of Taiwan identity it is also commercializing it. </p>
<p>Suming’s a postmodern phenomenon. At least that’s how I understand him. Pop music isn’t exactly my cup of tea either. I’m mostly a language guy, and hope to have the opportunity to learn one of the aboriginal languages, maybe Seediq. I will also look into the traditional music. It’s intriguing that it’s so diverse in this part of the world. Taiwan is also linguistically very diverse, according to Bellwood. Maybe the two diversities are related. I hope to run into you at some point, Victor. Thanks for your comment and best of luck with your research.</p>
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		<title>By: Victor Grauer</title>
		<link>/2012/01/01/mona-rudaos-scars/comment-page-1/#comment-713634</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Victor Grauer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6451#comment-713634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Darryl, I tried to respond to your question about my musical research in a comment to your initial post, but for some reason my comment got lost in cyberspace so I&#039;m trying again. Meanwhile I want also to take the opportunity to comment on your current post. I was working with a team that included a population geneticist, a statistician, and a cognitive scientist with a strong interest and involvement in ethnomusicology, in an effort to see if we could find any correlations between the vocal styles of the various indigenous Taiwanese groups and their genetic affinities.

I was not directly involved in the statistical analysis of the data,  so can&#039;t comment much on the results except to say that apparently no significant correlations were found. Which didn&#039;t surprise me, as this musical region (i.e. Island SE Asia) may well be the most heterogeneous and complex of any in the world.

Having the opportunity to familiarize myself with the many different native musical styles was a wonderful experience, however, as so much of this music is so interesting and often so beautiful.

The music of the Seediq is especially interesting from a musical standpoint as so much of it is contrapuntal -- more specifically, canonic, with two or more voices interweaving essentially the same musical motive after a brief delay, something like a round. I was hoping to find an example for you on youtube, or somewhere on the Internet, but nowadays a search on &quot;Seediq&quot; or anything similar brings up only references to the movie you&#039;ve been discussing -- and so far as I can tell from the trailer I found, the music is, from an ethnographic (or even aesthetic) perspective, simply horrendous -- just the usual sort of overblown Hollywooden orchestral cliches.

As far as &quot;primitivism&quot; is concerned, Seediq Bale, judging from the trailer I saw, does seem very much in a tradition that strikes me as more exploitive than supportive. I was hoping this would reflect &quot;primitivism&quot; in the best sense of the term, i.e., the &quot;primitivism&quot; of Gauguin, Picasso, Bartok, Stravinsky, etc., but I must say the trailer turned me off. I still want to see the film because I do believe this is a compelling story, and I definitely am interested in learning more about your take on it, so I hope you&#039;ll continue to post on it. But since I am very much of the Marshall McLuhan persuasion regarding the medium and the message, I have the feeling that in this case it seems as though the very Hollywood oriented medium is overwhelming any message regarding authentic Seediq culture that might have been part of the original inspiration.

As far as identity is concerned, I have a feeling your suspicions regarding the function of the film as part of an effort to promote a sense of &quot;Taiwanese&quot; identity are probably right on. It reminds me of the Chinese movie &quot;Hero&quot; in that respect. While the analogy between the Wushe situation and the current tensions between the People&#039;s Republic and Taiwan is certainly very strained, the vibe I get from the trailer gives me the sense that this IS in fact what the whole thing is really about -- at least from the viewpoint of the people who poured so much money into this project and no doubt had a strong influence on its look, sound and message.

As far as Suming is concerned, by the way, I have no interest whatever in him, sorry. What I saw and heard in that video comes across to me as an exercise in pure Narcissism, paid for undoubtedly by a very wealthy and doting family, or patron. The attempt to make it appear as some sort of effort to promote &quot;indigeneity&quot; strikes me as ludicrously hypocritical and exploitive. The text may well be in Amis and some of the costume elements may reflect Amis costumes, but no more than what you&#039;d expect to find in some cheesy Hollywood musical set in the &quot;South Seas.&quot;  


Authentically traditional Amis singing is also contrapuntal, like that of the Seediq, but in a different way, as you can hear from this excellent example on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROdVAV1zQo

Most of the other clips of &quot;traditional&quot; Taiwanese music that you can find on youtube are, for me, the equivalent of what could be called &quot;cultural rape.&quot; Take a simple melody, slap a pretentious rhythm section over it, preferable add some sappy strings and you have the sort of thing that is all too typical and now found all over the world, representing all sorts of traditions, very very sadly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darryl, I tried to respond to your question about my musical research in a comment to your initial post, but for some reason my comment got lost in cyberspace so I&#8217;m trying again. Meanwhile I want also to take the opportunity to comment on your current post. I was working with a team that included a population geneticist, a statistician, and a cognitive scientist with a strong interest and involvement in ethnomusicology, in an effort to see if we could find any correlations between the vocal styles of the various indigenous Taiwanese groups and their genetic affinities.</p>
<p>I was not directly involved in the statistical analysis of the data,  so can&#8217;t comment much on the results except to say that apparently no significant correlations were found. Which didn&#8217;t surprise me, as this musical region (i.e. Island SE Asia) may well be the most heterogeneous and complex of any in the world.</p>
<p>Having the opportunity to familiarize myself with the many different native musical styles was a wonderful experience, however, as so much of this music is so interesting and often so beautiful.</p>
<p>The music of the Seediq is especially interesting from a musical standpoint as so much of it is contrapuntal &#8212; more specifically, canonic, with two or more voices interweaving essentially the same musical motive after a brief delay, something like a round. I was hoping to find an example for you on youtube, or somewhere on the Internet, but nowadays a search on &#8220;Seediq&#8221; or anything similar brings up only references to the movie you&#8217;ve been discussing &#8212; and so far as I can tell from the trailer I found, the music is, from an ethnographic (or even aesthetic) perspective, simply horrendous &#8212; just the usual sort of overblown Hollywooden orchestral cliches.</p>
<p>As far as &#8220;primitivism&#8221; is concerned, Seediq Bale, judging from the trailer I saw, does seem very much in a tradition that strikes me as more exploitive than supportive. I was hoping this would reflect &#8220;primitivism&#8221; in the best sense of the term, i.e., the &#8220;primitivism&#8221; of Gauguin, Picasso, Bartok, Stravinsky, etc., but I must say the trailer turned me off. I still want to see the film because I do believe this is a compelling story, and I definitely am interested in learning more about your take on it, so I hope you&#8217;ll continue to post on it. But since I am very much of the Marshall McLuhan persuasion regarding the medium and the message, I have the feeling that in this case it seems as though the very Hollywood oriented medium is overwhelming any message regarding authentic Seediq culture that might have been part of the original inspiration.</p>
<p>As far as identity is concerned, I have a feeling your suspicions regarding the function of the film as part of an effort to promote a sense of &#8220;Taiwanese&#8221; identity are probably right on. It reminds me of the Chinese movie &#8220;Hero&#8221; in that respect. While the analogy between the Wushe situation and the current tensions between the People&#8217;s Republic and Taiwan is certainly very strained, the vibe I get from the trailer gives me the sense that this IS in fact what the whole thing is really about &#8212; at least from the viewpoint of the people who poured so much money into this project and no doubt had a strong influence on its look, sound and message.</p>
<p>As far as Suming is concerned, by the way, I have no interest whatever in him, sorry. What I saw and heard in that video comes across to me as an exercise in pure Narcissism, paid for undoubtedly by a very wealthy and doting family, or patron. The attempt to make it appear as some sort of effort to promote &#8220;indigeneity&#8221; strikes me as ludicrously hypocritical and exploitive. The text may well be in Amis and some of the costume elements may reflect Amis costumes, but no more than what you&#8217;d expect to find in some cheesy Hollywood musical set in the &#8220;South Seas.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Authentically traditional Amis singing is also contrapuntal, like that of the Seediq, but in a different way, as you can hear from this excellent example on youtube: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROdVAV1zQo" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROdVAV1zQo</a></p>
<p>Most of the other clips of &#8220;traditional&#8221; Taiwanese music that you can find on youtube are, for me, the equivalent of what could be called &#8220;cultural rape.&#8221; Take a simple melody, slap a pretentious rhythm section over it, preferable add some sappy strings and you have the sort of thing that is all too typical and now found all over the world, representing all sorts of traditions, very very sadly.</p>
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