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	<title>Comments on: Between Subjectivation and Subjection:  Making &#8216;Kinship&#8217; Feasible</title>
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	<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/</link>
	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology</description>
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		<title>By: Strong</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30226</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Strong]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Which is why Trautmann&#039;s book on Morgan is so key.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is why Trautmann&#8217;s book on Morgan is so key.</p>
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30223</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Strong -- I think you are right that one needs to make an informed critique of kinship rather than just telling people &quot;oh we all know now that that&#039;s wrong&quot;. I also think its quite fascinating to excavate these classic fields with an eye towards understanding the cultural structures which motivate them. It also prevents people from reinventing the wheel (or at least should) -- my own work on the rise and fall of &#039;cognatic kinship&#039; has exactly this goal. 

It&#039;s also fascinating watch the subterranean effect of these structures. One of my lingering projects is the literature on &#039;taboo&#039; in Polynesia, and how history of effect of Christian readings of the old testament on treatments of that material. It took people literally centuries to figure out that women in Polynesia weren&#039;t polluting, most of which time was recovering from &#039;Western&#039; presuppositions. It&#039;s a fascinating and complicated story.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strong &#8212; I think you are right that one needs to make an informed critique of kinship rather than just telling people &#8220;oh we all know now that that&#8217;s wrong&#8221;. I also think its quite fascinating to excavate these classic fields with an eye towards understanding the cultural structures which motivate them. It also prevents people from reinventing the wheel (or at least should) &#8212; my own work on the rise and fall of &#8216;cognatic kinship&#8217; has exactly this goal. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s also fascinating watch the subterranean effect of these structures. One of my lingering projects is the literature on &#8216;taboo&#8217; in Polynesia, and how history of effect of Christian readings of the old testament on treatments of that material. It took people literally centuries to figure out that women in Polynesia weren&#8217;t polluting, most of which time was recovering from &#8216;Western&#8217; presuppositions. It&#8217;s a fascinating and complicated story.</p>
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		<title>By: TJN</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30209</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TJN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30209</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Strong, you are quite right about the abandonment of comparison. Ever since Fabian, Schneider&#039;s Critique, Said, etc., cultural anthropologists seem to have decided that ethnography and ethnology are mutually exclusive, thus the turn to reflexive and auto-critical styles of writing. Critical writing stands in now for ethnology, at least for those adhering to more interpretive or humanistic understandings of the anthropological project.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strong, you are quite right about the abandonment of comparison. Ever since Fabian, Schneider&#8217;s Critique, Said, etc., cultural anthropologists seem to have decided that ethnography and ethnology are mutually exclusive, thus the turn to reflexive and auto-critical styles of writing. Critical writing stands in now for ethnology, at least for those adhering to more interpretive or humanistic understandings of the anthropological project.</p>
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		<title>By: Strong</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30123</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Strong]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We already know what that is:  &quot;time space compression.&quot;  

Re: &#039;Western&#039; biases built into study of kin terms.  I tend to agree.  And it&#039;s fascinating to *arrive* at that realization rather than start with it.  In order to get both what &#039;kinship&#039; was for anthropology for most of the twentieth century and why it became problematic for part of it, I think one needs to read deeply and charitably in the subject.  It&#039;s also important to think about what is lost (theoretically or empirically) when it is decided that comparative kinship isn&#039;t a tenable subject:  above all, comparison goes right out the window.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We already know what that is:  &#8220;time space compression.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Re: &#8216;Western&#8217; biases built into study of kin terms.  I tend to agree.  And it&#8217;s fascinating to *arrive* at that realization rather than start with it.  In order to get both what &#8216;kinship&#8217; was for anthropology for most of the twentieth century and why it became problematic for part of it, I think one needs to read deeply and charitably in the subject.  It&#8217;s also important to think about what is lost (theoretically or empirically) when it is decided that comparative kinship isn&#8217;t a tenable subject:  above all, comparison goes right out the window.</p>
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[erm... nothing comes to mind... but perhaps we just havent&#039; discovered the concept yet! &quot;socio-termporality of neoliberalism&quot; could be the next big thing!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>erm&#8230; nothing comes to mind&#8230; but perhaps we just havent&#8217; discovered the concept yet! &#8220;socio-termporality of neoliberalism&#8221; could be the next big thing!</p>
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		<title>By: TJN</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30068</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TJN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 01:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rex, thanks for the ref! Hey, how about the term &quot;social-termporally&quot; from my previous post? Its just a typo but it almost works there! Maybe I&#039;ve stumbled onto something?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rex, thanks for the ref! Hey, how about the term &#8220;social-termporally&#8221; from my previous post? Its just a typo but it almost works there! Maybe I&#8217;ve stumbled onto something?</p>
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30051</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TJN -- there is exactly such a term as &#039;relatedness&#039;! Check this out if you haven&#039;t seen it already:

http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Relatedness-Approaches-Study-Kinship/dp/052165193X/sr=8-1/qid=1158799670/ref=sr_1_1/102-6784012-5373711?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TJN &#8212; there is exactly such a term as &#8216;relatedness&#8217;! Check this out if you haven&#8217;t seen it already:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Relatedness-Approaches-Study-Kinship/dp/052165193X/sr=8-1/qid=1158799670/ref=sr_1_1/102-6784012-5373711?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Relatedness-Approaches-Study-Kinship/dp/052165193X/sr=8-1/qid=1158799670/ref=sr_1_1/102-6784012-5373711?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books</a></p>
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		<title>By: TJN</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30022</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TJN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30022</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I take Strong&#039;s point that we need to be careful about the entanglement of our critical language with the social formations it is ostensibly critical of. So &quot;old school&quot; issues like kinship terminology, insofar as they are concerned with social-termporally &quot;conservative&quot; formations, presents us with an alternative to the language of modernity (and the language of the marketplace). As Rex points out, there are reasons why we chucked terminology studies in the first place, not the least of which was the way terminology studies represented its subjects in Western terms. I don&#039;t want to be unfair to Trautmann, because I don&#039;t think he is really saying that we just need to pick up where Morgan left off. But I would object to his project if it assumed that kin terminology is a singular social phenomenon that can be abstracted from processes of formation and use, and fit into a comparative ethnological framework. Of course this isn&#039;t what you are suggesting Strong, and I like what you have to say about the &quot;consequential&quot; actions made possible once your presence was articulated in terms of kinship terminology. So what you are suggesting isn&#039;t a concern with terminology systems per se, but the armature of &quot;relatednesses&quot; (if thats even a word) that emerges from the use of kin terms.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take Strong&#8217;s point that we need to be careful about the entanglement of our critical language with the social formations it is ostensibly critical of. So &#8220;old school&#8221; issues like kinship terminology, insofar as they are concerned with social-termporally &#8220;conservative&#8221; formations, presents us with an alternative to the language of modernity (and the language of the marketplace). As Rex points out, there are reasons why we chucked terminology studies in the first place, not the least of which was the way terminology studies represented its subjects in Western terms. I don&#8217;t want to be unfair to Trautmann, because I don&#8217;t think he is really saying that we just need to pick up where Morgan left off. But I would object to his project if it assumed that kin terminology is a singular social phenomenon that can be abstracted from processes of formation and use, and fit into a comparative ethnological framework. Of course this isn&#8217;t what you are suggesting Strong, and I like what you have to say about the &#8220;consequential&#8221; actions made possible once your presence was articulated in terms of kinship terminology. So what you are suggesting isn&#8217;t a concern with terminology systems per se, but the armature of &#8220;relatednesses&#8221; (if thats even a word) that emerges from the use of kin terms.</p>
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-30008</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 19:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-30008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well it is good to see that there is someone more retro than I on Savage Minds! But I must say that I&#039;m not very enthused about &#039;kinship&#039; in the oldschool sense of the term, however much heuristic value these kinship systems may have when you first hit the ground in your fieldsite. 

In think the idea of their being &#039;kinship systems&#039; only seemed feasible to people who 1) were unwilling to open the black box of what &#039;following a (kinship) rule&#039; meant 2) ignore all the things that their informants thought counted as &#039;relatedness&#039; and privilege the biogenetic (in best Standard Average European fashion) 3) assume that &#039;cultural&#039; concepts are atomistic in the same way that phonemes are, which was a good guess but turned out to be true.

It&#039;s true that reinventing &#039;culture&#039; or &#039;socialization&#039; as &#039;governmentality&#039; or &#039;subjectification&#039; runs the risk of putting very old wine in shoddily made new bottles, and that all macro-actors have as their condition an &#039;L&#039; (as Parsons might put it) of latent understandings. But I must say I do fear a retro-backlash of Good Old Fashioned Kinship. Although I do not mean to suggest that is what you are doing here, Strong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well it is good to see that there is someone more retro than I on Savage Minds! But I must say that I&#8217;m not very enthused about &#8216;kinship&#8217; in the oldschool sense of the term, however much heuristic value these kinship systems may have when you first hit the ground in your fieldsite. </p>
<p>In think the idea of their being &#8216;kinship systems&#8217; only seemed feasible to people who 1) were unwilling to open the black box of what &#8216;following a (kinship) rule&#8217; meant 2) ignore all the things that their informants thought counted as &#8216;relatedness&#8217; and privilege the biogenetic (in best Standard Average European fashion) 3) assume that &#8216;cultural&#8217; concepts are atomistic in the same way that phonemes are, which was a good guess but turned out to be true.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that reinventing &#8216;culture&#8217; or &#8216;socialization&#8217; as &#8216;governmentality&#8217; or &#8216;subjectification&#8217; runs the risk of putting very old wine in shoddily made new bottles, and that all macro-actors have as their condition an &#8216;L&#8217; (as Parsons might put it) of latent understandings. But I must say I do fear a retro-backlash of Good Old Fashioned Kinship. Although I do not mean to suggest that is what you are doing here, Strong.</p>
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		<title>By: Strong</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-29896</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Strong]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-29896</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the comment.  I was simply lumping the Trautmann in with the other remarks as a way of thinking about contemporary approaches to kin terminologies.  I suppose, however, that one could also via Trautmann&#039;s (and Morgan&#039;s) arguments about the very slow-changing nature of these systems of naming as a way of correcting or providing a counter example to the supposedly epochally-consequential ways in which reproduction is governed under modernity.  But that&#039;s a very very abstract and general point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment.  I was simply lumping the Trautmann in with the other remarks as a way of thinking about contemporary approaches to kin terminologies.  I suppose, however, that one could also via Trautmann&#8217;s (and Morgan&#8217;s) arguments about the very slow-changing nature of these systems of naming as a way of correcting or providing a counter example to the supposedly epochally-consequential ways in which reproduction is governed under modernity.  But that&#8217;s a very very abstract and general point.</p>
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		<title>By: TJN</title>
		<link>/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/comment-page-1/#comment-29815</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TJN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 04:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/2006/09/19/between-subjectivation-and-subjection-making-kinship-feasible/#comment-29815</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting post. I&#039;ve always had a soft spot for the study of kinship terminology. Although I have to say that I find the theorization of socialities (M. Strathern, R. Wagner, P. Descola) more directly relevant to my understanding of the terms in which the interrogation (ugh, sorry for the ugly police-state term) of colonialism, postcolonialism and governmentality by the local takes place. I&#039;m still trying to stretch my brain to see the connection between Trautmann&#039;s call for a deep history of kinship terminology and your concern with the language we use for thinking about systems of social regulation and the social relations incumbent upon those. I&#039;m probably just being thick-headed--maybe a good dip into Dravidian kinship terminology is what I need to shake loose the cobwebs! Anyway, thanks for the post--it got me thinking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post. I&#8217;ve always had a soft spot for the study of kinship terminology. Although I have to say that I find the theorization of socialities (M. Strathern, R. Wagner, P. Descola) more directly relevant to my understanding of the terms in which the interrogation (ugh, sorry for the ugly police-state term) of colonialism, postcolonialism and governmentality by the local takes place. I&#8217;m still trying to stretch my brain to see the connection between Trautmann&#8217;s call for a deep history of kinship terminology and your concern with the language we use for thinking about systems of social regulation and the social relations incumbent upon those. I&#8217;m probably just being thick-headed&#8211;maybe a good dip into Dravidian kinship terminology is what I need to shake loose the cobwebs! Anyway, thanks for the post&#8211;it got me thinking.</p>
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