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	<title>Comments on: Buffer Races and Castelike Minorities</title>
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	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology</description>
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		<title>By: Intercultural Communication &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Immigration and race in the United States</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-18431</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Intercultural Communication &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Immigration and race in the United States]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-18431</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] There&#8217;s a post over at the Savage Minds anthropology blog that discusses some issues related to the idea that the United States is an immigrant&#8217;s dream. Kerim Friedman (who teaches at National Donghua University) argues that The reason immigrants tend to do well in America is not because America is a more welcoming society, but because we already have a permanent racial underclass in our African American population! (And, to some extent, Latinos and Native Americans as well.) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] There&#8217;s a post over at the Savage Minds anthropology blog that discusses some issues related to the idea that the United States is an immigrant&#8217;s dream. Kerim Friedman (who teaches at National Donghua University) argues that The reason immigrants tend to do well in America is not because America is a more welcoming society, but because we already have a permanent racial underclass in our African American population! (And, to some extent, Latinos and Native Americans as well.) [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Keywords &#187; Incarceration Rates</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-9229</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keywords &#187; Incarceration Rates]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 May 2006 14:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-9229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] But another reason can be found in social theory, according to which African Americans constitute a permanent racial under-caste. As Loïc Wacquant puts it (more here): To understand these phenomena, we first need to break out of the narrow &#8220;crime and punishment&#8221; paradigm and examine the broader role of the penal system as an instrument for managing dispossessed and dishonored groups. And second, we need to take a longer historical view on the shifting forms of ethno-racial domination in the United States. This double move suggests that the astounding upsurge in black incarceration in the past three decades results from the obsolescence of the ghetto as a device for caste control and the correlative need for a substitute apparatus for keeping (unskilled) African Americans in a subordinate and confined position—physically, socially, and symbolically. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] But another reason can be found in social theory, according to which African Americans constitute a permanent racial under-caste. As Loïc Wacquant puts it (more here): To understand these phenomena, we first need to break out of the narrow &#8220;crime and punishment&#8221; paradigm and examine the broader role of the penal system as an instrument for managing dispossessed and dishonored groups. And second, we need to take a longer historical view on the shifting forms of ethno-racial domination in the United States. This double move suggests that the astounding upsurge in black incarceration in the past three decades results from the obsolescence of the ghetto as a device for caste control and the correlative need for a substitute apparatus for keeping (unskilled) African Americans in a subordinate and confined position—physically, socially, and symbolically. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4864</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4864</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is, of course, supposed to be &quot;Daily show...&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is, of course, supposed to be &#8220;Daily show&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4863</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4863</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last night&#039;s &quot;Late Show with Jon Stewart&quot; was a special on Race in America (&quot;a country of immigrants...who owned other immigrants&quot;). Any insights? Dunno, but it&#039;s funny. You can watch bits &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/most_recent/index.jhtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last night&#8217;s &#8220;Late Show with Jon Stewart&#8221; was a special on Race in America (&#8220;a country of immigrants&#8230;who owned other immigrants&#8221;). Any insights? Dunno, but it&#8217;s funny. You can watch bits <a href="http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/most_recent/index.jhtml" rel="nofollow"> here</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kerim</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4860</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kerim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 06:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4860</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Krugman &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_3645066&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;agrees&lt;/a&gt; with Ozma:

 &lt;blockquote&gt;it&#039;s intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants do &quot;jobs that Americans will not do.&quot; The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays - and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants.
 &lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Krugman <a href="http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_3645066" rel="nofollow">agrees</a> with Ozma:</p>
<blockquote><p>it&#8217;s intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants do &#8220;jobs that Americans will not do.&#8221; The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays &#8211; and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants.
 </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Ozma</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4843</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ozma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg,

I have to disagree.  This argument -- that undocumented immigrants do work that &quot;no one else wants&quot; or &quot;no one else is available to perform&quot; masks both extant forms of institutional discrimination AND the fact that undocumented immigrants are hired to perform work under abusive conditions rather than hired to perform work for which no other workers are available.  Their desirability as workers is not about general scarcity -- it is about specific forms of exploitation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>I have to disagree.  This argument &#8212; that undocumented immigrants do work that &#8220;no one else wants&#8221; or &#8220;no one else is available to perform&#8221; masks both extant forms of institutional discrimination AND the fact that undocumented immigrants are hired to perform work under abusive conditions rather than hired to perform work for which no other workers are available.  Their desirability as workers is not about general scarcity &#8212; it is about specific forms of exploitation.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4838</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4838</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kerim,

You overlooked the fact that not all immigrants &quot;do well&quot; in America. Undocumented immigrants (primarily but not exclusively Latino) continue to supplement America&#039;s permanent racial underclass as David Jaeger documents in a paper recently posted on the Center for American Progress website (http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&#038;b=1528891). 
African Americans and other castelike minorities do not provide enough low skilled workers for the US economy. Jaeger notes, &quot;if the undocumented were removed from the labor force, there would be a shortfall of nearly 2.5 million low-skill workers.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kerim,</p>
<p>You overlooked the fact that not all immigrants &#8220;do well&#8221; in America. Undocumented immigrants (primarily but not exclusively Latino) continue to supplement America&#8217;s permanent racial underclass as David Jaeger documents in a paper recently posted on the Center for American Progress website (<a href="http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&#038;b=1528891" rel="nofollow">http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&#038;b=1528891</a>).<br />
African Americans and other castelike minorities do not provide enough low skilled workers for the US economy. Jaeger notes, &#8220;if the undocumented were removed from the labor force, there would be a shortfall of nearly 2.5 million low-skill workers.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kerim</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4814</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kerim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4814</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Taking another tactic: Women continue to earn 70% on the dollar compared with men. Conspiracy? Inevitable force? Or just institutionalized sexism? I personally choose the answer that seems the least absurd.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taking another tactic: Women continue to earn 70% on the dollar compared with men. Conspiracy? Inevitable force? Or just institutionalized sexism? I personally choose the answer that seems the least absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: Kerim</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4813</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kerim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4813</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Funny thing is, in study after study White Americans deny that there is any such thing as &quot;institutional racism&quot; while African Americans insist they are victims of it. They must all be delusional, right? After all, there isn&#039;t any conspiracy of history against them, so it must all be in their heads?

There is a big difference bewteen a cultural logic and a conspiracy. For instance, when employers systematically promote fellow whites over blacks they may simply be looking for people &quot;like themselves&quot; who they feel comfortable hanging out with. But the result is racism nonetheless. Multiply that on a societal scale and you begin to see what institutional racism looks like. It isn&#039;t inevitable, but it isn&#039;t a negligble force either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny thing is, in study after study White Americans deny that there is any such thing as &#8220;institutional racism&#8221; while African Americans insist they are victims of it. They must all be delusional, right? After all, there isn&#8217;t any conspiracy of history against them, so it must all be in their heads?</p>
<p>There is a big difference bewteen a cultural logic and a conspiracy. For instance, when employers systematically promote fellow whites over blacks they may simply be looking for people &#8220;like themselves&#8221; who they feel comfortable hanging out with. But the result is racism nonetheless. Multiply that on a societal scale and you begin to see what institutional racism looks like. It isn&#8217;t inevitable, but it isn&#8217;t a negligble force either.</p>
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		<title>By: Ozma</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ozma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 17:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Patrick, your argument would seem to pressuppose that &quot;caste&quot; IS immutable in, say, India -- an assumption which current government policy there certainly does not not support.  &quot;Caste&quot; itself -- like &quot;caste-like&quot; statuses -- are all socially constructed, 
?non?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick, your argument would seem to pressuppose that &#8220;caste&#8221; IS immutable in, say, India &#8212; an assumption which current government policy there certainly does not not support.  &#8220;Caste&#8221; itself &#8212; like &#8220;caste-like&#8221; statuses &#8212; are all socially constructed,<br />
?non?</p>
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		<title>By: Ms. World</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4796</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ms. World]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4796</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very interesting ideas! Thanks for giving me other ideas to think about!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting ideas! Thanks for giving me other ideas to think about!</p>
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		<title>By: AmericaninFrance</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4795</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AmericaninFrance]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve also been thinking about these things recently, especially the Wacquant institutional approach to caste exclusion, in regards to my research in the suburbs of Paris. 

I find his article &quot;The new &quot;peculiar institution&quot; useful, but only when reading it in the context of an ethnography that deals with caste exclusion (in prison, ghettos, etc). Otherwise, one gets the idea that this caste exclusion contiuum is made up of an overarching historical machinery in which humans have little influence, and more importantly, which doesn&#039;t take into account the experience of ghetto residents or inmates. The logic is sound, but what are the mecanisms of these changes, and where are the actors? This isn&#039;t a critique of Wacquant because it&#039;s a short article and he&#039;s also done participant-observation stuff--I just think both perspectives (macro and micro) are essential to interpret the situation (and are represented pretty well in Philippe Bourgois&#039;s In search of respect).

However, in terms of Wacquant&#039;s thoughts on the situation of caste exclusion and &quot;anti-ghettos&quot; in France, I can say that my experience in the field has completely contradicted his reflection (in strong marxist tradition) that French youth whose parents came from North or sub-saharan Africa &quot;feel French&quot; and that it&#039;s class, not ethnicity that matters in their disenchantment and protest. I have to say, all evidence I&#039;ve seen thus far goes against such an interpretation. When was the last time Wacquant came to the Paris suburbs? 

Maybe it&#039;s de Tocqueville syndrome....

Kerim--hmmm, what school could that be? (it seems we have the same alma mater).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve also been thinking about these things recently, especially the Wacquant institutional approach to caste exclusion, in regards to my research in the suburbs of Paris. </p>
<p>I find his article &#8220;The new &#8220;peculiar institution&#8221; useful, but only when reading it in the context of an ethnography that deals with caste exclusion (in prison, ghettos, etc). Otherwise, one gets the idea that this caste exclusion contiuum is made up of an overarching historical machinery in which humans have little influence, and more importantly, which doesn&#8217;t take into account the experience of ghetto residents or inmates. The logic is sound, but what are the mecanisms of these changes, and where are the actors? This isn&#8217;t a critique of Wacquant because it&#8217;s a short article and he&#8217;s also done participant-observation stuff&#8211;I just think both perspectives (macro and micro) are essential to interpret the situation (and are represented pretty well in Philippe Bourgois&#8217;s In search of respect).</p>
<p>However, in terms of Wacquant&#8217;s thoughts on the situation of caste exclusion and &#8220;anti-ghettos&#8221; in France, I can say that my experience in the field has completely contradicted his reflection (in strong marxist tradition) that French youth whose parents came from North or sub-saharan Africa &#8220;feel French&#8221; and that it&#8217;s class, not ethnicity that matters in their disenchantment and protest. I have to say, all evidence I&#8217;ve seen thus far goes against such an interpretation. When was the last time Wacquant came to the Paris suburbs? </p>
<p>Maybe it&#8217;s de Tocqueville syndrome&#8230;.</p>
<p>Kerim&#8211;hmmm, what school could that be? (it seems we have the same alma mater).</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4792</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 15:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doesn&#039;t defining whether a minority is &quot;caste-like&quot; in terms of that minority&#039;s entry into america (which is an immutable, past event) create a dialogue in which the minority&#039;s status is presumed to be likewise immutable?

I&#039;m all for acknowledging historical contingency, but contingency isn&#039;t destiny.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#8217;t defining whether a minority is &#8220;caste-like&#8221; in terms of that minority&#8217;s entry into america (which is an immutable, past event) create a dialogue in which the minority&#8217;s status is presumed to be likewise immutable?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m all for acknowledging historical contingency, but contingency isn&#8217;t destiny.</p>
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		<title>By: Ozma</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ozma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 15:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great, great post -- this is a point that (white) U.S. students are really resistant to hearing; they&#039;re so eager to congratulate themselves for viewing all &quot;races&quot; &quot;equally&quot; in the multiculturalism format that they can only hear an anti-racist argument that articulates distinctions between the historical experiences of different &quot;races&quot; as, well, racist.  I&#039;m glad to have the notion of &quot;caste-like minority&quot; in my pedagogical toolkit, thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great, great post &#8212; this is a point that (white) U.S. students are really resistant to hearing; they&#8217;re so eager to congratulate themselves for viewing all &#8220;races&#8221; &#8220;equally&#8221; in the multiculturalism format that they can only hear an anti-racist argument that articulates distinctions between the historical experiences of different &#8220;races&#8221; as, well, racist.  I&#8217;m glad to have the notion of &#8220;caste-like minority&#8221; in my pedagogical toolkit, thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Kerim</title>
		<link>/2006/04/04/buffer-races-and-castelike-minorities/comment-page-1/#comment-4776</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kerim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 08:23:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=433#comment-4776</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BTW: Rix != Rex]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW: Rix != Rex</p>
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