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	<title>Comments on: A predicament of sport</title>
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	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology</description>
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		<title>By: BAdMonkEy</title>
		<link>/2006/01/10/a-predicament-of-sport/comment-page-1/#comment-3588</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BAdMonkEy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=361#comment-3588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have an idea, why dont you guys have a wewigious cawicatuwe contest? You can aww dwaw siwwy dwawings of majow wewigious figuwes, wike Jesus, Buddha, Mohamad,Dawi Wama, etc. Dis wouwd be a gweat way to &quot;cuwtuwawwy bond&quot; wif diffewent, but eqwaw, ethnic gwoups. Oh, dat scwewy wabbit!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have an idea, why dont you guys have a wewigious cawicatuwe contest? You can aww dwaw siwwy dwawings of majow wewigious figuwes, wike Jesus, Buddha, Mohamad,Dawi Wama, etc. Dis wouwd be a gweat way to &#8220;cuwtuwawwy bond&#8221; wif diffewent, but eqwaw, ethnic gwoups. Oh, dat scwewy wabbit!</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>/2006/01/10/a-predicament-of-sport/comment-page-1/#comment-2884</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=361#comment-2884</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comments, Ozma and Johannes. This is indeed complicated. One the one hand, it is easy to agree with Johannes about certain questionable aspects of contemporary leisure activities involving children. But children&#039;s football in Norway is not particularly competitive before the age of 12-13; everybody gets the same playing time, and coaches emphasise the collective nature of the game. It is also an enormously powerful integrating force and can, by the same token, be socially excluding for boys (in some places girls as well) who do not take part. Especially immmigrant boys, who are already in a precarious situation, being part of the local sport club is one of their few possibilities for full, equal participation. One might opt out, or promote wide-ranging changes of the kind suggested by Johannes. And, as the other dads and I often say to each other when we meet on the training ground: When we were children, our parents never drove us anywhere, and we didn&#039;t seem to mind. They did not feel it was necessary, and they had other things to do. (As if we did not!) So my father&#039;s generation shared, to some extent, the outlook of contemporary immmigrant fathers.

The context in question is not the place to question the overall role of sport in children&#039;s lives and public life in general, even if I agree with Johannes that there are critical questions which need to be raised at some point here. Bussing the kids to away matches is a good idea, and it is not utopian, but it would only solve a part of the problem. which is chiefly economic.

Now, Ozma&#039;s suggestion is excellent. Good manners and respect for elders are two of the things many immigrants miss among Norwegian children (and in Norwegian society generally). Like in any unhappy relationship, it takes two to tango, and ethnic Norwegians have clearly not taken the communication problem sufficiently seriously in this case.  

I think I&#039;m ready to write that op-ed article now. Before that, however, I have a new blog to write on Savage Minds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments, Ozma and Johannes. This is indeed complicated. One the one hand, it is easy to agree with Johannes about certain questionable aspects of contemporary leisure activities involving children. But children&#8217;s football in Norway is not particularly competitive before the age of 12-13; everybody gets the same playing time, and coaches emphasise the collective nature of the game. It is also an enormously powerful integrating force and can, by the same token, be socially excluding for boys (in some places girls as well) who do not take part. Especially immmigrant boys, who are already in a precarious situation, being part of the local sport club is one of their few possibilities for full, equal participation. One might opt out, or promote wide-ranging changes of the kind suggested by Johannes. And, as the other dads and I often say to each other when we meet on the training ground: When we were children, our parents never drove us anywhere, and we didn&#8217;t seem to mind. They did not feel it was necessary, and they had other things to do. (As if we did not!) So my father&#8217;s generation shared, to some extent, the outlook of contemporary immmigrant fathers.</p>
<p>The context in question is not the place to question the overall role of sport in children&#8217;s lives and public life in general, even if I agree with Johannes that there are critical questions which need to be raised at some point here. Bussing the kids to away matches is a good idea, and it is not utopian, but it would only solve a part of the problem. which is chiefly economic.</p>
<p>Now, Ozma&#8217;s suggestion is excellent. Good manners and respect for elders are two of the things many immigrants miss among Norwegian children (and in Norwegian society generally). Like in any unhappy relationship, it takes two to tango, and ethnic Norwegians have clearly not taken the communication problem sufficiently seriously in this case.  </p>
<p>I think I&#8217;m ready to write that op-ed article now. Before that, however, I have a new blog to write on Savage Minds.</p>
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		<title>By: Johannes Wilm</title>
		<link>/2006/01/10/a-predicament-of-sport/comment-page-1/#comment-2878</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Johannes Wilm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=361#comment-2878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;Thomas&quot;&gt;I hear that most Somali men in the USA work; well, in Norway, they don’t have to and they don’t. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Are you absolutely 100% certain that the parents in question have both the time and the resources (a car and enough money for gas) that is required in order to fulfil these &quot;duties&quot;? 

And also, woudn&#039;t it be easier in Norway to make the government pay for buses to out-of-town games for all the sports clubs? That would probably be a lot more environmentally friendly anyways (and yes, the snow melting in the beginning of January in Oslo probably is a clear sign that one needs to change ones habits anyways).

It also seems to me like there is a little bit of a one-sided focus changing the behavior of immigrants here - but who says that the Norwegian behavior is sustainable? Rumors have it that it was only the old East Germany and the current Norway that spend  enough on sports for it to be a discernable figure on the budget. Is that really a good thing? Is it a good thing that parents spend all their time on trying to turn their kids into professionals of whatever sport? How much pressure is being put onto these kids from their parents? Is this really a &quot;culture&quot; that needs to be supported, or would it maybe be a better idea to make all youth sports in the country turn the pressure a bit down by focusing less on competition and making the parents go home to carry on their own life instead?

And also, for many members of minorities,things like school and  group activity with other youngsters are the only places where one can escape the norms and rules that ones parents seem to be caught within, but which oneself can not really see the point in. Now if you have the parents invade the soccer field as well, then that window of freedom is gone as well!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="Thomas"><p>I hear that most Somali men in the USA work; well, in Norway, they don’t have to and they don’t. </p></blockquote>
<p>Are you absolutely 100% certain that the parents in question have both the time and the resources (a car and enough money for gas) that is required in order to fulfil these &#8220;duties&#8221;? </p>
<p>And also, woudn&#8217;t it be easier in Norway to make the government pay for buses to out-of-town games for all the sports clubs? That would probably be a lot more environmentally friendly anyways (and yes, the snow melting in the beginning of January in Oslo probably is a clear sign that one needs to change ones habits anyways).</p>
<p>It also seems to me like there is a little bit of a one-sided focus changing the behavior of immigrants here &#8211; but who says that the Norwegian behavior is sustainable? Rumors have it that it was only the old East Germany and the current Norway that spend  enough on sports for it to be a discernable figure on the budget. Is that really a good thing? Is it a good thing that parents spend all their time on trying to turn their kids into professionals of whatever sport? How much pressure is being put onto these kids from their parents? Is this really a &#8220;culture&#8221; that needs to be supported, or would it maybe be a better idea to make all youth sports in the country turn the pressure a bit down by focusing less on competition and making the parents go home to carry on their own life instead?</p>
<p>And also, for many members of minorities,things like school and  group activity with other youngsters are the only places where one can escape the norms and rules that ones parents seem to be caught within, but which oneself can not really see the point in. Now if you have the parents invade the soccer field as well, then that window of freedom is gone as well!</p>
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		<title>By: Ozma</title>
		<link>/2006/01/10/a-predicament-of-sport/comment-page-1/#comment-2864</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ozma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=361#comment-2864</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This story sounds complicated, and very interesting.  It reminded me of something from my field site (which will lead to a suggestion!).  Where I work in rural Bolivia, for school activities not supported by public money -- say, a graduation party at the end of each year -- parents and community members are &quot;named&quot; as &quot;godparents&quot; of various aspects of the activity.  So, for example, a person who is known to have extra livestock will receive a letter &quot;naming&quot; him &quot;godfather of the barbecue&quot; which means he will be expected to provide a cow or a couple of pigs or something for the party.  In any event, people sort of groan when they receive these &quot;namings&quot; (because it is always an expensive hassle) but they are also rather pleased, and usually save the letter as a memento.  The letters are always written in an extremely high-flown flowery Spanish (in a community where everyone speaks Guaraní in everyday life) and lay it on thick about how &quot;because of the great esteem in which we hold you, we ask you to do us the honor of acting as...&quot; and the request comes NOT from other parents, or the teachers or whatever, but from the children of the school.  The request, then, is not an egalitarian &quot;let&#039;s all pitch in&quot; request but one that is an appeal to generational hierarchies.

So.  This leads me to my suggestion -- which might or might not address the problem, since it sounds as if the cause of under-participation by immigrant parents in soccer volunteering is unclear.  It would also be a lot of work for an organizer.  But:   what if at the beginning of each sport season all of the parents received an &quot;invitation&quot; *from the children on the team* (obviously, some grownup would write it, but it would be phrased as from the children) saying something like:

 &quot;during the soccer season, we children come to feel as if we are members of one big family and that our teammates are like our sisters and our brothers.  Because of this, we want to honor our own parents, and one another&#039;s parents, across the season.  Please let us know at which game or games we can look forward to hosting you as &quot;team parents&quot;.  

This invitation should be delivered by children, on behalf of their teammates, to parents -- rather than laterally extended by some parents to other parents.

I don&#039;t think any parents will be surprised to learn there is a &quot;helping the kids&quot; component to this great honor, but if a little ritual marked the kids showing respect to the parents -- say, the kids filing by and shaking the hands of the parents running the soda stand or whatever and thanking them by name before or after the game -- it could become a nice little ritual.

Without knowing much about the cultural values of the immigrant populations in question, I am going to hazard a guess that requests phrased in the idiom of fictive kinship -- and requests that reinforce something like &quot;youngers respecting elders, and elders helping youngers&quot; might result in a higher yield rate.  In effect, having parents share the responsiblity of running games would reinforce good Norwegian values -- while the children simultaneously honoring their own and one anothers&#039; parents at each game would reinforce values held (I am supposing) by immigrants and Norwegians alike.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This story sounds complicated, and very interesting.  It reminded me of something from my field site (which will lead to a suggestion!).  Where I work in rural Bolivia, for school activities not supported by public money &#8212; say, a graduation party at the end of each year &#8212; parents and community members are &#8220;named&#8221; as &#8220;godparents&#8221; of various aspects of the activity.  So, for example, a person who is known to have extra livestock will receive a letter &#8220;naming&#8221; him &#8220;godfather of the barbecue&#8221; which means he will be expected to provide a cow or a couple of pigs or something for the party.  In any event, people sort of groan when they receive these &#8220;namings&#8221; (because it is always an expensive hassle) but they are also rather pleased, and usually save the letter as a memento.  The letters are always written in an extremely high-flown flowery Spanish (in a community where everyone speaks Guaraní in everyday life) and lay it on thick about how &#8220;because of the great esteem in which we hold you, we ask you to do us the honor of acting as&#8230;&#8221; and the request comes NOT from other parents, or the teachers or whatever, but from the children of the school.  The request, then, is not an egalitarian &#8220;let&#8217;s all pitch in&#8221; request but one that is an appeal to generational hierarchies.</p>
<p>So.  This leads me to my suggestion &#8212; which might or might not address the problem, since it sounds as if the cause of under-participation by immigrant parents in soccer volunteering is unclear.  It would also be a lot of work for an organizer.  But:   what if at the beginning of each sport season all of the parents received an &#8220;invitation&#8221; *from the children on the team* (obviously, some grownup would write it, but it would be phrased as from the children) saying something like:</p>
<p> &#8220;during the soccer season, we children come to feel as if we are members of one big family and that our teammates are like our sisters and our brothers.  Because of this, we want to honor our own parents, and one another&#8217;s parents, across the season.  Please let us know at which game or games we can look forward to hosting you as &#8220;team parents&#8221;.  </p>
<p>This invitation should be delivered by children, on behalf of their teammates, to parents &#8212; rather than laterally extended by some parents to other parents.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think any parents will be surprised to learn there is a &#8220;helping the kids&#8221; component to this great honor, but if a little ritual marked the kids showing respect to the parents &#8212; say, the kids filing by and shaking the hands of the parents running the soda stand or whatever and thanking them by name before or after the game &#8212; it could become a nice little ritual.</p>
<p>Without knowing much about the cultural values of the immigrant populations in question, I am going to hazard a guess that requests phrased in the idiom of fictive kinship &#8212; and requests that reinforce something like &#8220;youngers respecting elders, and elders helping youngers&#8221; might result in a higher yield rate.  In effect, having parents share the responsiblity of running games would reinforce good Norwegian values &#8212; while the children simultaneously honoring their own and one anothers&#8217; parents at each game would reinforce values held (I am supposing) by immigrants and Norwegians alike.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>/2006/01/10/a-predicament-of-sport/comment-page-1/#comment-2860</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=361#comment-2860</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brad&#039;s comment makes me think about the differences between the USA and European countries when it comes to pluralism, participation in local communities and mechanisms of social integration. In the USA, the entrance ticket to get into a community is generally cheaper than in Europe, the main reason being its past and present identity as a country of immigrants. Moreover, lacking strong welfare structures, Americans are more often confronted with a &quot;swim or sink&quot; attitude. As my late friend and colleague Eduardo Archetti used to say (he was from Argentina, settled in Norway for many years): &quot;In Norway, everybody gets a second chance.&quot; He was thinking about incompetent researchers whose grants were renewed again and again... 

I hear that most Somali men in the USA work; well, in Norway, they don&#039;t have to and they don&#039;t. &quot;Wagework is not part of their culture&quot;, as anthropologists of the previous generation might explain it. What I&#039;m getting at is that a letter of the kind mentioned by Brad might work in San Francisco, while it might not in Drammen. At any rate, I&#039;ll include the proposition in my article.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad&#8217;s comment makes me think about the differences between the USA and European countries when it comes to pluralism, participation in local communities and mechanisms of social integration. In the USA, the entrance ticket to get into a community is generally cheaper than in Europe, the main reason being its past and present identity as a country of immigrants. Moreover, lacking strong welfare structures, Americans are more often confronted with a &#8220;swim or sink&#8221; attitude. As my late friend and colleague Eduardo Archetti used to say (he was from Argentina, settled in Norway for many years): &#8220;In Norway, everybody gets a second chance.&#8221; He was thinking about incompetent researchers whose grants were renewed again and again&#8230; </p>
<p>I hear that most Somali men in the USA work; well, in Norway, they don&#8217;t have to and they don&#8217;t. &#8220;Wagework is not part of their culture&#8221;, as anthropologists of the previous generation might explain it. What I&#8217;m getting at is that a letter of the kind mentioned by Brad might work in San Francisco, while it might not in Drammen. At any rate, I&#8217;ll include the proposition in my article.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad DeLong</title>
		<link>/2006/01/10/a-predicament-of-sport/comment-page-1/#comment-2849</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad DeLong]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=361#comment-2849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Drafn’s economic situation is precarious, partly because the parents of immigrant children tend not to contribute to voluntary work. This kind of work, which typically amounts to selling hotdogs on match days (well, if you disapprove of pork sausages, I’m sure you can be assigned to the soda fountain), organising raffles and annual flea markets, is absolutely essential for the survival of any sport club in Norway which is working with children. In my experience, an attendance of around 75% or higher is expected, although clubs rarely have effective sanctions against parents who repeatedly fail to show up. At Drafn, most immigrant parents rarely take part. It is also a cause of some irritation among ethnic Norwegians that immigrant parents rarely drive the kids to away matches – also something typically shared in the parental group...&quot;

In suburban San Francisco, when we sign our children up for after-school sports teams, we must also sign up to do our share of the &quot;volunteer&quot; jobs necessary to make the team run--selling, driving, providing water for games, umpiring, et cetera. There are no sanctions or control mechanisms: nothing happens if you don&#039;t actually show up to do the volunteer job you signed up for. But it does perform the function of making sure that every parent understands what is expected of them by the coach, the team, and the other parents.

What has happened when attempts have been made to make expectations explicit: when immigrant parents are told, &quot;Your child has signed up to play sport X; it is expected that parents of children on the team will...&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: &#8220;Drafn’s economic situation is precarious, partly because the parents of immigrant children tend not to contribute to voluntary work. This kind of work, which typically amounts to selling hotdogs on match days (well, if you disapprove of pork sausages, I’m sure you can be assigned to the soda fountain), organising raffles and annual flea markets, is absolutely essential for the survival of any sport club in Norway which is working with children. In my experience, an attendance of around 75% or higher is expected, although clubs rarely have effective sanctions against parents who repeatedly fail to show up. At Drafn, most immigrant parents rarely take part. It is also a cause of some irritation among ethnic Norwegians that immigrant parents rarely drive the kids to away matches – also something typically shared in the parental group&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>In suburban San Francisco, when we sign our children up for after-school sports teams, we must also sign up to do our share of the &#8220;volunteer&#8221; jobs necessary to make the team run&#8211;selling, driving, providing water for games, umpiring, et cetera. There are no sanctions or control mechanisms: nothing happens if you don&#8217;t actually show up to do the volunteer job you signed up for. But it does perform the function of making sure that every parent understands what is expected of them by the coach, the team, and the other parents.</p>
<p>What has happened when attempts have been made to make expectations explicit: when immigrant parents are told, &#8220;Your child has signed up to play sport X; it is expected that parents of children on the team will&#8230;&#8221;?</p>
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