Comments on: Place Hacking http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/ Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:06:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Place Hacking » Blog Archive » 15 thoughts for PhD students http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-703284 Place Hacking » Blog Archive » 15 thoughts for PhD students Sun, 12 Dec 2010 20:54:27 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-703284 [...] in high-ranking journals. I often publish in other places, sideline journals, online magazines, interviews on other people’s blogs, etc. but these are always in addition to my primary work thread. My best advice, passed on from my [...] [...] in high-ranking journals. I often publish in other places, sideline journals, online magazines, interviews on other people’s blogs, etc. but these are always in addition to my primary work thread. My best advice, passed on from my [...]

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]]> By: T W Reynolds http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-631115 T W Reynolds Wed, 26 May 2010 20:54:19 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-631115 As a MA student working in cultural landscapes I find this article refreshing. Here we have Garrett just telling his story. We are excited by the idea of exploring the past through its decaying skeletons. This article steps down from the ivory tower into urban ruins. Does it glorify or romanticize the experience? Sure it does because it is about the experience not the results. Would I be interested in seeing his methodology chapter sure I would. I think his reasoning would be similar to all of ours. As a MA student working in cultural landscapes I find this article refreshing. Here we have Garrett just telling his story. We are excited by the idea of exploring the past through its decaying skeletons. This article steps down from the ivory tower into urban ruins. Does it glorify or romanticize the experience? Sure it does because it is about the experience not the results. Would I be interested in seeing his methodology chapter sure I would. I think his reasoning would be similar to all of ours.

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]]> By: John McCreery http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627977 John McCreery Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:45:59 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627977 _Given that I have spent a good chunk of my life participating with and interviewing dozens of people connected to the practice, and given that I am essentially putting myself forward as a representative for this very large underground community, many of whom are rather unhappy that I am doing so, yes, I am going to promote, not condemn the practice in an interview about my work._ Bradley, thank you. Every anthropologist should think carefully about what you say here. We need to recognize, first, that without the romanticizing and aestheticizing now seen as sins, anthropology would not exist. Imagine if every early anthropologist had written like Raymond Firth instead of Bronislaw Malinowski, let alone in the ponderous style of current critical theory. How many people would have read anthropology or found it exciting enough to pursue as a career? We need to consider, second, that if we want our voices to be heard we need to negotiate the same fine line as journalists, both looking for a compelling story and treating our sources with respect — and, at the same time, being careful to avoid selling out by simply repeating what our sources want us to say. If our theories are worth the bother, it will always be because they reveal aspects of what we are told or what we observe of which our sources may either be unaware or reluctant to reveal. How far we will go in exposing, demystifying or explaining will always be an unavoidable moral decision. Avoiding both the Scylla of selling out and the Charybdis of doing harm will never be easy. _Given that I have spent a good chunk of my life participating with and interviewing dozens of people connected to the practice, and given that I am essentially putting myself forward as a representative for this very large underground community, many of whom are rather unhappy that I am doing so, yes, I am going to promote, not condemn the practice in an interview about my work._

Bradley, thank you. Every anthropologist should think carefully about what you say here.

We need to recognize, first, that without the romanticizing and aestheticizing now seen as sins, anthropology would not exist. Imagine if every early anthropologist had written like Raymond Firth instead of Bronislaw Malinowski, let alone in the ponderous style of current critical theory. How many people would have read anthropology or found it exciting enough to pursue as a career?

We need to consider, second, that if we want our voices to be heard we need to negotiate the same fine line as journalists, both looking for a compelling story and treating our sources with respect — and, at the same time, being careful to avoid selling out by simply repeating what our sources want us to say. If our theories are worth the bother, it will always be because they reveal aspects of what we are told or what we observe of which our sources may either be unaware or reluctant to reveal. How far we will go in exposing, demystifying or explaining will always be an unavoidable moral decision. Avoiding both the Scylla of selling out and the Charybdis of doing harm will never be easy.

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]]> By: Bradley L. Garrett http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627952 Bradley L. Garrett Sun, 24 Jan 2010 13:17:54 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627952 @MRosen - Thank you for your comments. I will respond briefly in two points. One: my replies to Adam's "probing" questions were, I think, a necessary glorification because essentially the only question was "why should we care?" Given that I have spent a good chunk of my life participating with and interviewing dozens of people connected to the practice, and given that I am essentially putting myself forward as a representative for this very large underground community, many of whom are rather unhappy that I am doing so, yes, I am going to promote, not condemn the practice in an interview about my work. Which brings me to my second point: what I may say in an interview online or post on my blog will obviously be rather different from the content of my dissertation. Would you prefer me to post my methodology chapter? I will of course add to academic discourse about the shortcomings and failings of the practice, about buying into one system of Western thought and representation while rejecting another, about the glorification (in line with systems of Western thought) of ruin, dereliction, etc., but that was not the goal here. The goal was to introduce the SM community to something new and exciting, to promote my research and to get people talking. Which it has done! @John - of course the "authorities" are lurking in the same places, that just reinforces my point about illusions of control! Thanks again for the comments! @MRosen – Thank you for your comments. I will respond briefly in two points. One: my replies to Adam’s “probing” questions were, I think, a necessary glorification because essentially the only question was “why should we care?” Given that I have spent a good chunk of my life participating with and interviewing dozens of people connected to the practice, and given that I am essentially putting myself forward as a representative for this very large underground community, many of whom are rather unhappy that I am doing so, yes, I am going to promote, not condemn the practice in an interview about my work.

Which brings me to my second point: what I may say in an interview online or post on my blog will obviously be rather different from the content of my dissertation. Would you prefer me to post my methodology chapter? I will of course add to academic discourse about the shortcomings and failings of the practice, about buying into one system of Western thought and representation while rejecting another, about the glorification (in line with systems of Western thought) of ruin, dereliction, etc., but that was not the goal here. The goal was to introduce the SM community to something new and exciting, to promote my research and to get people talking. Which it has done!

@John – of course the “authorities” are lurking in the same places, that just reinforces my point about illusions of control!

Thanks again for the comments!

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]]> By: John McCreery http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627945 John McCreery Sun, 24 Jan 2010 08:49:27 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627945 Thanks, MT. Now we are getting somewhere. I just get annoyed occasionally when folks trot out "critical" buzzwords in a wholly uncritical way. Pure speculation, but I wonder if ignoring "No trespassing" signs to explore abandoned buildings and then posting footage on the Internet doesn't involve a new twist on the old game of doing something the parents tell you not to do and then telling your friends about it. There's an assumption here that the authority figures don't care all that much and, even if they do, they won't be hip to what only you and your friends know about. Cory Doctorow's SF novel _Little Brother_ explores what happens when these assumptions break down in a near-future USA where Homeland Security is watching every move and every keystroke that the "I'm just playing, I'm not a terrorist" teenage heroes make. I remember having a high school friend whose dad worked at Camp Peary where the CIA trains its black ops people. Every time we drove through the gate, I got a little rush from reading the sign that said, "Trespassers may be shot without warning." I wonder how that sort of situation would change urbex. Thanks, MT. Now we are getting somewhere. I just get annoyed occasionally when folks trot out “critical” buzzwords in a wholly uncritical way.

Pure speculation, but I wonder if ignoring “No trespassing” signs to explore abandoned buildings and then posting footage on the Internet doesn’t involve a new twist on the old game of doing something the parents tell you not to do and then telling your friends about it. There’s an assumption here that the authority figures don’t care all that much and, even if they do, they won’t be hip to what only you and your friends know about.

Cory Doctorow’s SF novel _Little Brother_ explores what happens when these assumptions break down in a near-future USA where Homeland Security is watching every move and every keystroke that the “I’m just playing, I’m not a terrorist” teenage heroes make.

I remember having a high school friend whose dad worked at Camp Peary where the CIA trains its black ops people. Every time we drove through the gate, I got a little rush from reading the sign that said, “Trespassers may be shot without warning.” I wonder how that sort of situation would change urbex.

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]]> By: MRosen http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627933 MRosen Sun, 24 Jan 2010 00:47:32 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627933 ah, sorry to get all puritanical - these kids today with their "games" and "spectacles"... There's nothing wrong with trying to capture the wonder, excitement, and sense of transgression that people experience as part of urban exploration - the point of my comment was merely that I'd like to see more direct answers to the challenging questions posed, perhaps answers that mingle the triumphal collective "we" with a more contextualized account of who engages in this practice and what the experience of "getting into those cracks in the structure" means for them (since Garrett claims that they are separable from him and his work). It's really that second-to-last answer that got me - maximizing your flickr stats and "raking in the google adsense cash." I would say that's brushing shoulders with some grim and serious business. I could speculate, but I'd love to see someone more knowledgeable about urbex than I analyze how participants think about being wired in to the grid from which they declare their autonomy (or is the answer just "play"?). Urbex seems to be a romantic enterprise in many ways; I'm curious as to how the work of constructing this romantic mythos takes place - or is that, as Adam suggests, the work of Garrett himself? This process seems embedded in the new media economy; how does urbex relate to other similarly "marginal" lifestyles enabled by the internet/how does it differentiate itself? Of course all this is not resolvable in an interview; I was just surprised that no one wanted to push in these directions. ah, sorry to get all puritanical – these kids today with their “games” and “spectacles”…

There’s nothing wrong with trying to capture the wonder, excitement, and sense of transgression that people experience as part of urban exploration – the point of my comment was merely that I’d like to see more direct answers to the challenging questions posed, perhaps answers that mingle the triumphal collective “we” with a more contextualized account of who engages in this practice and what the experience of “getting into those cracks in the structure” means for them (since Garrett claims that they are separable from him and his work).

It’s really that second-to-last answer that got me – maximizing your flickr stats and “raking in the google adsense cash.” I would say that’s brushing shoulders with some grim and serious business. I could speculate, but I’d love to see someone more knowledgeable about urbex than I analyze how participants think about being wired in to the grid from which they declare their autonomy (or is the answer just “play”?). Urbex seems to be a romantic enterprise in many ways; I’m curious as to how the work of constructing this romantic mythos takes place – or is that, as Adam suggests, the work of Garrett himself? This process seems embedded in the new media economy; how does urbex relate to other similarly “marginal” lifestyles enabled by the internet/how does it differentiate itself? Of course all this is not resolvable in an interview; I was just surprised that no one wanted to push in these directions.

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]]> By: John McCreery http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627917 John McCreery Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:19:39 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627917 What is this problem that people have with "romantic and aestheticized"? Must an anthropologist be a Puritan? A bore who thinks that life must be grim and serious to be real? These questions are not to say that a bit of solid, realistic analysis would be amiss. Just wondering if there's anything there but the kind of Sunday School moralizing that some of us went into anthropology to escape. What is this problem that people have with “romantic and aestheticized”? Must an anthropologist be a Puritan? A bore who thinks that life must be grim and serious to be real?

These questions are not to say that a bit of solid, realistic analysis would be amiss. Just wondering if there’s anything there but the kind of Sunday School moralizing that some of us went into anthropology to escape.

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]]> By: Tim http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627915 Tim Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:10:05 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627915 I will put my hand up in agreement with MRosen. Great, probing interview, but as for Garrett's take on urban exploration: pretentious much? The practice is romantic and aestheticized enough without bringing Guy Debord and Hakim Bey into it. I mean just look at the photographs of Michael Cook. I read great interview with him on BLDGBLOG a few years back. http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/drains-of-canada-interview-with-michael.html I will put my hand up in agreement with MRosen. Great, probing interview, but as for Garrett’s take on urban exploration: pretentious much? The practice is romantic and aestheticized enough without bringing Guy Debord and Hakim Bey into it. I mean just look at the photographs of Michael Cook. I read great interview with him on BLDGBLOG a few years back.

http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/drains-of-canada-interview-with-michael.html

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]]> By: John McCreery http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627910 John McCreery Sat, 23 Jan 2010 03:16:38 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627910 Just curious, MRosen, do you have anything to add to the analysis? Or is all you know how to do is complain? Or, whoops, should I call that "critique"? How about spelling out for us your unromantic, realist take on what is going on here? Just curious, MRosen, do you have anything to add to the analysis? Or is all you know how to do is complain? Or, whoops, should I call that “critique”?

How about spelling out for us your unromantic, realist take on what is going on here?

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]]> By: MRosen http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627909 MRosen Sat, 23 Jan 2010 03:09:00 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627909 wait...does nobody else have a problem with Garrett's largely uncritical engagement with the urbex community - dare I say, his wide-eyed romanticizing/aestheticizing of their practices? Adam's questions cut to the core deficiencies of Garrett's work, and few of them are satisfactorily answered. I see this as a great example of how to try to conduct a probing interview... wait…does nobody else have a problem with Garrett’s largely uncritical engagement with the urbex community – dare I say, his wide-eyed romanticizing/aestheticizing of their practices? Adam’s questions cut to the core deficiencies of Garrett’s work, and few of them are satisfactorily answered. I see this as a great example of how to try to conduct a probing interview…

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]]> By: Min Min http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627884 Min Min Fri, 22 Jan 2010 01:00:23 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627884 @ Z: Have you checked out the ballroom in King Edward Hotel off King Street? It's abandoned and supposedly haunted. You can only get up on the elevator to the 2nd last floor and then walk up the last bit. @ Z: Have you checked out the ballroom in King Edward Hotel off King Street? It’s abandoned and supposedly haunted. You can only get up on the elevator to the 2nd last floor and then walk up the last bit.

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]]> By: Bradley L. Garrett http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627878 Bradley L. Garrett Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:23:59 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627878 Zohar, Arguably the most famous urban explorer was from Toronto! His name was Jeff Chapman, aka Ninjalicious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjalicious Have a look at this book by him, it is full of locations in the area: http://www.amazon.com/Access-All-Areas-Users-Exploration/dp/0973778709/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264097185&sr=8-1 Finally, check out the Canadian UrbEx forum called UER: http://www.uer.ca/forum_showcats.asp?fid=1 That should keep you busy! -The Goblinmerchant Zohar,

Arguably the most famous urban explorer was from Toronto! His name was Jeff Chapman, aka Ninjalicious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjalicious

Have a look at this book by him, it is full of locations in the area: http://www.amazon.com/Access-All-Areas-Users-Exploration/dp/0973778709/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264097185&sr=8-1

Finally, check out the Canadian UrbEx forum called UER: http://www.uer.ca/forum_showcats.asp?fid=1

That should keep you busy!

-The Goblinmerchant

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]]> By: Bradley L. Garrett http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627877 Bradley L. Garrett Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:10:15 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627877 Zohar, Aguably the most famous urban explorer in the world was from Toronto! His name was Jeff Chapman, also called Ninjalicious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjalicious Have a look at this book by him, it is full of locations in the area: http://www.amazon.com/Access-All-Areas-Users-Exploration/dp/0973778709/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264097185&sr=8-1 Finally, check out the Canadian UrbEx forum called UER: http://www.uer.ca/forum_showcats.asp?fid=1 That should keep you busy! Thanks for the interest everyone! -The Goblinmerchant Zohar,

Aguably the most famous urban explorer in the world was from Toronto! His name was Jeff Chapman, also called Ninjalicious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjalicious

Have a look at this book by him, it is full of locations in the area: http://www.amazon.com/Access-All-Areas-Users-Exploration/dp/0973778709/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264097185&sr=8-1

Finally, check out the Canadian UrbEx forum called UER: http://www.uer.ca/forum_showcats.asp?fid=1

That should keep you busy!

Thanks for the interest everyone!

-The Goblinmerchant

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]]> By: Zohar http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627876 Zohar Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:48:22 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627876 A great read. Such a fascinating experience. I've done my BA in Anthropology. Looking back at it all now makes me feel like I've almost achieved nothing. This post however awakens my desire for exploration of urban geography. I live in Toronto, Ontario. Would you know of similar spots around here that I could try to explore? Photograph? Abandoned sites like the ones you've visited elsewhere? Z. A great read. Such a fascinating experience. I’ve done my BA in Anthropology. Looking back at it all now makes me feel like I’ve almost achieved nothing. This post however awakens my desire for exploration of urban geography.

I live in Toronto, Ontario. Would you know of similar spots around here that I could try to explore? Photograph? Abandoned sites like the ones you’ve visited elsewhere?

Z.

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]]> By: MTBradley http://savageminds.org/2010/01/20/place-hacking/comment-page-1/#comment-627875 MTBradley Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:42:55 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=3115#comment-627875 bq. The stories that I find really enticing are not in the grand narratives but in the fine details. And out comes the archaeologist in me. Going through peoples belongings left behind, old pictures and letters to the family, imaging what lives were like before the industry was picked apart by packets or resource extinction, driving it into bankruptcy or obsoletion. Remind me again why archaeologists don't have to go through the IRB process? bq. The stories that I find really enticing are not in the grand narratives but in the fine details. And out comes the archaeologist in me. Going through peoples belongings left behind, old pictures and letters to the family, imaging what lives were like before the industry was picked apart by packets or resource extinction, driving it into bankruptcy or obsoletion.

Remind me again why archaeologists don’t have to go through the IRB process?

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