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	<title>Comments on: Warcraft and the Craftsman: Grinding, Crafting, and Craft.</title>
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	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Savage Minds: Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog &#8230; &#124; Siphon Mana</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-592531</link>
		<dc:creator>Savage Minds: Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog &#8230; &#124; Siphon Mana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-467902</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-467902</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t die in Second Life. You can&#039;t cut your finger off in a virtual table saw.
As far as SL as a form of art, the model is more Jacqueline Susanne: it&#039;s a fantasy. Gaming is fantasy.
Jascha Heifetz was a materialist.  So  was Proust.

You&#039;re thinking of craft as other.  But lawyers are craftsmen.  They&#039;re actors and seducers.  Good teachers are craftsman. Craft should not be presented as some sort of helpful element to life.  It&#039;s how we communicate. Politicians are craftsmen. Con-men are craftsmen. The manipulation of subtexts and implications. 
&quot;Its a vindication of craft over art, of workmannship over ‘inspiration’&quot;
You&#039;ve just made me not want to get this book.

Try writing a dialogue where the implications of each speaker&#039;s words undermine the stated intent.  That is: try writing a dialogue that&#039;s also a quartet.  If you can pull it off it&#039;s because you&#039;re a craftsman. Describe geekdom compellingly to a non-geek and you&#039;ll be a craftsman. More so than any geek could ever be.

Divided government and legal adversarialism are both based on the inevitability of craft and the need for mastery.
&quot;Ladies... and gentleman, of the jury.  Ladies and gentleman...  of the jury.  [stare directly at them but don&#039;t intimidate them]  Cast your eyes on my poo-oor client [hey kid...stop smiling] Is this the face of a lad who could commit...  such a heinous act as throwing a baseball through a plate... glass... window?&quot;

Academics forgot the craft of language. All they have left is ideas, and most of them are lies.   Can you imaging that there are subtexts in the language of this blog?  That you&#039;re &quot;crafting&quot; a little linguistic home for yourselves to reinforce your own prejudices?
That is simply a fact.  So how do you respond to that understanding?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t die in Second Life. You can&#8217;t cut your finger off in a virtual table saw.<br />
As far as SL as a form of art, the model is more Jacqueline Susanne: it&#8217;s a fantasy. Gaming is fantasy.<br />
Jascha Heifetz was a materialist.  So  was Proust.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re thinking of craft as other.  But lawyers are craftsmen.  They&#8217;re actors and seducers.  Good teachers are craftsman. Craft should not be presented as some sort of helpful element to life.  It&#8217;s how we communicate. Politicians are craftsmen. Con-men are craftsmen. The manipulation of subtexts and implications.<br />
&#8220;Its a vindication of craft over art, of workmannship over ‘inspiration’&#8221;<br />
You&#8217;ve just made me not want to get this book.</p>
<p>Try writing a dialogue where the implications of each speaker&#8217;s words undermine the stated intent.  That is: try writing a dialogue that&#8217;s also a quartet.  If you can pull it off it&#8217;s because you&#8217;re a craftsman. Describe geekdom compellingly to a non-geek and you&#8217;ll be a craftsman. More so than any geek could ever be.</p>
<p>Divided government and legal adversarialism are both based on the inevitability of craft and the need for mastery.<br />
&#8220;Ladies&#8230; and gentleman, of the jury.  Ladies and gentleman&#8230;  of the jury.  [stare directly at them but don't intimidate them]  Cast your eyes on my poo-oor client [hey kid...stop smiling] Is this the face of a lad who could commit&#8230;  such a heinous act as throwing a baseball through a plate&#8230; glass&#8230; window?&#8221;</p>
<p>Academics forgot the craft of language. All they have left is ideas, and most of them are lies.   Can you imaging that there are subtexts in the language of this blog?  That you&#8217;re &#8220;crafting&#8221; a little linguistic home for yourselves to reinforce your own prejudices?<br />
That is simply a fact.  So how do you respond to that understanding?
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		<title>By: Taylor Nelms</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-407541</link>
		<dc:creator>Taylor Nelms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-407541</guid>
		<description>Another fascinating post. A different thread has caught my attention: how might a discussion of craft/crafting be turned back on the anthropological enterprise? There may be some work out there that already makes this analogy, but it might be interesting to consider the degree to which anthropological work/research/writing mirrors artistic vs. craft production. Of course we often talk about the intellectual work as a kind of parallel to artistic creation (e.g. Rex&#039;s comment that &#039;I admit that this revelation came to me shortly after finishing a chapter of Sennett’s book when my level 20 Paladin ...&#039;), but it has often been said that writing (perhaps especially book writing) might be better understood as crafting. Benjamin&#039;s work might be useful here, especially &#039;The Storyteller&#039; (an essay-reflection on narration and the Russian writer Nikolai Leskov). Benjamin says a lot of interesting things, including that story-telling is about the recomposition of experience (&#039;The storyteller takes what he tells from experience--his own or that reported by others. And he in turn makes it the experience of those
who are listening to his tale.&#039;), that the best story-tellers combine geographic and temporal distance, and that the hand (in combination with the soul and the eye) is the vehicle of praxis (hand = tactility/touching)--sound familiar? (We also get in Benjamin, although maybe not in &#039;The Storyteller&#039; specifically, the text-as-textile metaphor transmuted in the anthropological realm into culture-as-fabric.) In any case, there are some interesting parallels here with ethnographic writing, although I am more interested in how we might characterize the ethnographic (field/work) experience itself as a kind of craft. I haven&#039;t read Sennett&#039;s book, but in a recent &quot;Guardian article&quot;:http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2250725,00.html (an excerpt from the book?) he writes that, &#039;Three abilities are the foundation of craftsmanship: to localise, to question and to open up. The first involves making a matter concrete; the second, reflecting on its qualities; the third, expanding its sense.&#039; We might dispute the particularities of such a definition for ethnographic practice, but Sennett&#039;s delineation of craft seems to me to be a nice entry-point to the discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another fascinating post. A different thread has caught my attention: how might a discussion of craft/crafting be turned back on the anthropological enterprise? There may be some work out there that already makes this analogy, but it might be interesting to consider the degree to which anthropological work/research/writing mirrors artistic vs. craft production. Of course we often talk about the intellectual work as a kind of parallel to artistic creation (e.g. Rex&#8217;s comment that &#8216;I admit that this revelation came to me shortly after finishing a chapter of Sennett’s book when my level 20 Paladin &#8230;&#8217;), but it has often been said that writing (perhaps especially book writing) might be better understood as crafting. Benjamin&#8217;s work might be useful here, especially &#8216;The Storyteller&#8217; (an essay-reflection on narration and the Russian writer Nikolai Leskov). Benjamin says a lot of interesting things, including that story-telling is about the recomposition of experience (&#8216;The storyteller takes what he tells from experience&#8211;his own or that reported by others. And he in turn makes it the experience of those<br />
who are listening to his tale.&#8217;), that the best story-tellers combine geographic and temporal distance, and that the hand (in combination with the soul and the eye) is the vehicle of praxis (hand = tactility/touching)&#8211;sound familiar? (We also get in Benjamin, although maybe not in &#8216;The Storyteller&#8217; specifically, the text-as-textile metaphor transmuted in the anthropological realm into culture-as-fabric.) In any case, there are some interesting parallels here with ethnographic writing, although I am more interested in how we might characterize the ethnographic (field/work) experience itself as a kind of craft. I haven&#8217;t read Sennett&#8217;s book, but in a recent &#8220;Guardian article&#8221;:<a href="http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0" rel="nofollow">http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0</a>,,2250725,00.html (an excerpt from the book?) he writes that, &#8216;Three abilities are the foundation of craftsmanship: to localise, to question and to open up. The first involves making a matter concrete; the second, reflecting on its qualities; the third, expanding its sense.&#8217; We might dispute the particularities of such a definition for ethnographic practice, but Sennett&#8217;s delineation of craft seems to me to be a nice entry-point to the discussion.
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-407306</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 05:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ve played WoW for some time (always w/the intention of studying it one day) but won&#039;t actually start &#039;research&#039; until the fall when... hopefully... I receive permission from a guild to record their activities (I just received the OK from my institutional review board). So while I have logged a lot of time in the game I don&#039;t want to talk too much about the specifics of my experiences w/my folks till they sign off -- which is why most of my published work on WoW at this point is very &#039;theoretical&#039; and not &#039;ethnographic&#039;. Suffice to say that the level of misogyny and gay bashing is pretty low in the group I&#039;m looking at, which features several families which play together and has a &#039;no cursing&#039; policy.

But frankly I think all classes can solo quickly and efficiently as long as you don&#039;t gimp their spec (trying to level a warrior as prot instead of fury, e.g.), not just pet classes. And of course puging 5 mans doesn&#039;t require tons of scheduling but... I imagine we both have better things to do than have me convince you to play more WoW!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve played WoW for some time (always w/the intention of studying it one day) but won&#8217;t actually start &#8216;research&#8217; until the fall when&#8230; hopefully&#8230; I receive permission from a guild to record their activities (I just received the OK from my institutional review board). So while I have logged a lot of time in the game I don&#8217;t want to talk too much about the specifics of my experiences w/my folks till they sign off &#8212; which is why most of my published work on WoW at this point is very &#8216;theoretical&#8217; and not &#8216;ethnographic&#8217;. Suffice to say that the level of misogyny and gay bashing is pretty low in the group I&#8217;m looking at, which features several families which play together and has a &#8216;no cursing&#8217; policy.</p>
<p>But frankly I think all classes can solo quickly and efficiently as long as you don&#8217;t gimp their spec (trying to level a warrior as prot instead of fury, e.g.), not just pet classes. And of course puging 5 mans doesn&#8217;t require tons of scheduling but&#8230; I imagine we both have better things to do than have me convince you to play more WoW!
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		<title>By: LFB</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-406921</link>
		<dc:creator>LFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-406921</guid>
		<description>Regarding progress, as soon as my WoW main reached 70, I got bored.  I hadn&#039;t even uncovered the entire outland map, but leveling alts felt like been-there, done-that.  I just stopped seeing those little XP bubbles.  Guildies told me that the game only just begins when you finally level up, but I could no longer see the progress and so I quit.

In Rex&#039;s ethnography (?) or theorization of WoW, I really, really hope that you address the issues of, say, locks and hunters, who are chosen by people because they can solo.  When I tried dependent classes, I could not commit the hours needed, and the need to schedule my real life around the game.  That meant after I leveled, I spent a while helping out newbies, lowbies, guildies, etc. then logged off.

I also hope you will address issues of gender and sexuality in WoW, as well as Blizzard&#039;s conflicts with its sexual minoritarian players.  There were interesting gay bashings as well (PvP hunting for members of gay guilds, disrupting parades and weddings, etc.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding progress, as soon as my WoW main reached 70, I got bored.  I hadn&#8217;t even uncovered the entire outland map, but leveling alts felt like been-there, done-that.  I just stopped seeing those little XP bubbles.  Guildies told me that the game only just begins when you finally level up, but I could no longer see the progress and so I quit.</p>
<p>In Rex&#8217;s ethnography (?) or theorization of WoW, I really, really hope that you address the issues of, say, locks and hunters, who are chosen by people because they can solo.  When I tried dependent classes, I could not commit the hours needed, and the need to schedule my real life around the game.  That meant after I leveled, I spent a while helping out newbies, lowbies, guildies, etc. then logged off.</p>
<p>I also hope you will address issues of gender and sexuality in WoW, as well as Blizzard&#8217;s conflicts with its sexual minoritarian players.  There were interesting gay bashings as well (PvP hunting for members of gay guilds, disrupting parades and weddings, etc.)
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-405764</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-405764</guid>
		<description>This post attempted to be a vindication of play in WoW, but I think it has led on to an interesting research question which people really want to pursue in SL, not in WoW at all: given the long and interpenetrating histories of notions of art, leisure, labor, and craft in the United States, and given the way they relate to deep-seated concerns with authenticity, selfhood, and morality in the Protestant tradition, which of this pre-existing vocabulary to people in SL draw on? How and why do they do so? Tom&#039;s notion of &#039;creationist capitalism&#039; gets us some of the way there, but his volume is a general ethnography, and it sounds like the question we are looking at requires much more specific investigation -- one of those books that he says every chapter could be turned into. 

I think its a fascinating question and I hope he (or someone else) would answer it! I&#039;d give it a crack myself but... I&#039;ve got to farm some tin to level my alts blacksmithing...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post attempted to be a vindication of play in WoW, but I think it has led on to an interesting research question which people really want to pursue in SL, not in WoW at all: given the long and interpenetrating histories of notions of art, leisure, labor, and craft in the United States, and given the way they relate to deep-seated concerns with authenticity, selfhood, and morality in the Protestant tradition, which of this pre-existing vocabulary to people in SL draw on? How and why do they do so? Tom&#8217;s notion of &#8216;creationist capitalism&#8217; gets us some of the way there, but his volume is a general ethnography, and it sounds like the question we are looking at requires much more specific investigation &#8212; one of those books that he says every chapter could be turned into. </p>
<p>I think its a fascinating question and I hope he (or someone else) would answer it! I&#8217;d give it a crack myself but&#8230; I&#8217;ve got to farm some tin to level my alts blacksmithing&#8230;
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		<title>By: David Glenn</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-405394</link>
		<dc:creator>David Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 01:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Haven&#039;t read The Craftsman, but Morris + Ruskin have cameos in Sennett&#039;s 2003 book, Respect in a World of Inequality. 

95% of what I think I know about the British craft movement comes from Lears&#039;s No Place of Grace:

bq.In part a reaction against therapeutic self-absorption, the revival of handicraft ultimately became another form of therapy for an overcivilized bourgeoisie . . . &#039;Do-it-yourself&#039; projects have provided innumerable Americans with a sense of autonomy and a chance to confront the substantial reality of material things. For people whose working lives seem beyond their control and permeated by the barrenness of a bureaucratic civilization, this is no small achievement. Yet it perpetuates the fragmentation decried by Ruskin and Morris: the split between work and pay and work for joy.

Never having a single minute at Second Life or WoW, I&#039;ve got nothing to say about how that analysis might map onto the MMPORG world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t read The Craftsman, but Morris + Ruskin have cameos in Sennett&#8217;s 2003 book, Respect in a World of Inequality. </p>
<p>95% of what I think I know about the British craft movement comes from Lears&#8217;s No Place of Grace:</p>
<p>bq.In part a reaction against therapeutic self-absorption, the revival of handicraft ultimately became another form of therapy for an overcivilized bourgeoisie . . . &#8216;Do-it-yourself&#8217; projects have provided innumerable Americans with a sense of autonomy and a chance to confront the substantial reality of material things. For people whose working lives seem beyond their control and permeated by the barrenness of a bureaucratic civilization, this is no small achievement. Yet it perpetuates the fragmentation decried by Ruskin and Morris: the split between work and pay and work for joy.</p>
<p>Never having a single minute at Second Life or WoW, I&#8217;ve got nothing to say about how that analysis might map onto the MMPORG world.
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		<title>By: ckelty</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-405094</link>
		<dc:creator>ckelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Should I be surprised that in these discussions there is no invocation of William Morris (or John Ruskin)?  It&#039;s always seemed to me that this whole art/craft distinction people think is so meaningful has its origins there.  Is it in Sennett?  Is it useful to think through Morris&#039; mix of romaniticism and socialism to understand what SLers are doing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should I be surprised that in these discussions there is no invocation of William Morris (or John Ruskin)?  It&#8217;s always seemed to me that this whole art/craft distinction people think is so meaningful has its origins there.  Is it in Sennett?  Is it useful to think through Morris&#8217; mix of romaniticism and socialism to understand what SLers are doing?
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-404911</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-404911</guid>
		<description>1. Owen: I think your comment speaks to the way we might want to think of WoW as a performing art. Every time you drop a boss you get better at dropping future bosses. Every time you grow as a musician future performances will be better although the score of the piece you play stays the same.

Points for Tom:

2. Do SLers &quot;treat the world as full of inert objects that are infinitely plastic and submit to human manipulation&quot;? They may or may not, but given the number of quotes I have read and seen which focus on SLers being &quot;limited only by their imagination&quot; &quot;creating a world from scratch&quot; &quot;the entire world is created by users&quot; &quot;having control over things in a way they never could in real life&quot; I&#039;m voting for &#039;may&#039;. Of course we&#039;d need more research so... keep going!

3. Regarding &#039;craft and the Xian tradition&#039; -- I think you might enjoy reading the first half of Sennett&#039;s book, which traces the shifting relationships between craftsmen and machinery in Western Europe. And thanks for the cite to the McCullough -- I will look it up.

4. By &#039;designers&#039; I simply mean &#039;people who work with prims a lot&#039; and probably have a lot of the experiences  that Sennett describes of people working with wood. Regardless, I don&#039;t think you could call Cory&#039;s work very focused on &#039;craft&#039; in Sennett&#039;s sense. When he says things like  &quot;content creation has traditionally been the domain of elite artists&quot; &#039;art&#039; is refigured as &#039;content&#039; and the player as a romantic genius. This is not what Sennett is after.

4. Re: fieldsites, treating SL as a closed world and not venturing out of it for research doesn&#039;t seem to rethink the fieldwork imaginary very much. As for whether you take your own work seriously or consider it &#039;a conceit&#039; -- I&#039;ll wait for you to come down one way or the other before I do so as well ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Owen: I think your comment speaks to the way we might want to think of WoW as a performing art. Every time you drop a boss you get better at dropping future bosses. Every time you grow as a musician future performances will be better although the score of the piece you play stays the same.</p>
<p>Points for Tom:</p>
<p>2. Do SLers &#8220;treat the world as full of inert objects that are infinitely plastic and submit to human manipulation&#8221;? They may or may not, but given the number of quotes I have read and seen which focus on SLers being &#8220;limited only by their imagination&#8221; &#8220;creating a world from scratch&#8221; &#8220;the entire world is created by users&#8221; &#8220;having control over things in a way they never could in real life&#8221; I&#8217;m voting for &#8216;may&#8217;. Of course we&#8217;d need more research so&#8230; keep going!</p>
<p>3. Regarding &#8216;craft and the Xian tradition&#8217; &#8212; I think you might enjoy reading the first half of Sennett&#8217;s book, which traces the shifting relationships between craftsmen and machinery in Western Europe. And thanks for the cite to the McCullough &#8212; I will look it up.</p>
<p>4. By &#8216;designers&#8217; I simply mean &#8216;people who work with prims a lot&#8217; and probably have a lot of the experiences  that Sennett describes of people working with wood. Regardless, I don&#8217;t think you could call Cory&#8217;s work very focused on &#8216;craft&#8217; in Sennett&#8217;s sense. When he says things like  &#8220;content creation has traditionally been the domain of elite artists&#8221; &#8216;art&#8217; is refigured as &#8216;content&#8217; and the player as a romantic genius. This is not what Sennett is after.</p>
<p>4. Re: fieldsites, treating SL as a closed world and not venturing out of it for research doesn&#8217;t seem to rethink the fieldwork imaginary very much. As for whether you take your own work seriously or consider it &#8216;a conceit&#8217; &#8212; I&#8217;ll wait for you to come down one way or the other before I do so as well ;)
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		<title>By: Tom Boellstorff</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-404754</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Boellstorff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-404754</guid>
		<description>Oops Rex – our posts posted at almost the same time, so just saw this from you:

“It’s another example of Coming of Age in Second Life running afoul of the sort of theorization of ‘the field’ that Gupta, Ferguson, Marcus etc. have been trying to rethink.”

How could I resist? Since Akhil Gupta was one of my dissertation advisors, and Jim Ferguson and George Marcus are former and current colleagues at Irvine, respectively, the obvious point to make here with regard to how I rethink “the field” is:

You do realize that the book is a conceit, right? Or is it? Ha ha! 

If you’re interested in how I theorize the field, one piece you might find interesting is “Ethnolocality” (The Asia Pacific Journal of Anthropology 3(1):24–48, see my website). I sum up this argument in my first book (The Gay Archipelago: Sexuality and Nation in Indonesia), but the article goes into more depth. It’s about Indonesia, not Second Life of course, but I find fascinating theoretical linkages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops Rex – our posts posted at almost the same time, so just saw this from you:</p>
<p>“It’s another example of Coming of Age in Second Life running afoul of the sort of theorization of ‘the field’ that Gupta, Ferguson, Marcus etc. have been trying to rethink.”</p>
<p>How could I resist? Since Akhil Gupta was one of my dissertation advisors, and Jim Ferguson and George Marcus are former and current colleagues at Irvine, respectively, the obvious point to make here with regard to how I rethink “the field” is:</p>
<p>You do realize that the book is a conceit, right? Or is it? Ha ha! </p>
<p>If you’re interested in how I theorize the field, one piece you might find interesting is “Ethnolocality” (The Asia Pacific Journal of Anthropology 3(1):24–48, see my website). I sum up this argument in my first book (The Gay Archipelago: Sexuality and Nation in Indonesia), but the article goes into more depth. It’s about Indonesia, not Second Life of course, but I find fascinating theoretical linkages.
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		<title>By: Owen Wiltshire</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-404730</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen Wiltshire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-404730</guid>
		<description>As an ex wow fiend heres my immediate reaction - 

When you carve something, and get better, the final product also gets better. But when you grind in WOW, level, put a boss on farm status etc, it doesn&#039;t get better - it stays the same. You just get better at making the same product, where the craftsman ends up making a better product.

Craftsmanship vs Practice... something like that...

Also the grinding = not fun, progress = fun, statement is a bit too simple. I had fun running around doing world pvp - which at the time didn&#039;t lead to &quot;progress&quot; in the game. Now with the pvp system running around killing has its perks/progress too... 

Just to say not everyone sees progress the same way on there. Many roll alts constantly and never progress past level 20 [yet they play just as much as raid freaks]... I was a bit progress intensive, and got stuck raiding so much I got in trouble if I went pee too often. 

In the end I was part of a guild that slaughtered the end game [pre expansion] - I feel I practiced a lot, honed my skills, and it took a lot of teamwork, but somehow it lacked the ingenuity that I&#039;d hope for if I was &quot;crafting&quot;.

Confessions of an ex wow addict volume III.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an ex wow fiend heres my immediate reaction &#8211; </p>
<p>When you carve something, and get better, the final product also gets better. But when you grind in WOW, level, put a boss on farm status etc, it doesn&#8217;t get better &#8211; it stays the same. You just get better at making the same product, where the craftsman ends up making a better product.</p>
<p>Craftsmanship vs Practice&#8230; something like that&#8230;</p>
<p>Also the grinding = not fun, progress = fun, statement is a bit too simple. I had fun running around doing world pvp &#8211; which at the time didn&#8217;t lead to &#8220;progress&#8221; in the game. Now with the pvp system running around killing has its perks/progress too&#8230; </p>
<p>Just to say not everyone sees progress the same way on there. Many roll alts constantly and never progress past level 20 [yet they play just as much as raid freaks]&#8230; I was a bit progress intensive, and got stuck raiding so much I got in trouble if I went pee too often. </p>
<p>In the end I was part of a guild that slaughtered the end game [pre expansion] &#8211; I feel I practiced a lot, honed my skills, and it took a lot of teamwork, but somehow it lacked the ingenuity that I&#8217;d hope for if I was &#8220;crafting&#8221;.</p>
<p>Confessions of an ex wow addict volume III.
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		<title>By: Tom Boellstorff</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-404725</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Boellstorff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-404725</guid>
		<description>An interesting post; once again I’m flattered. You say with regard to the idea “that ideas of creativity are paramount” that “this point of view… treats the world as full of inert objects that are infinitely plastic and submit to human manipulation,” but you don’t substantiate that assertion. In particular, while you string together “infinitely plastic” and “submit to human manipulation,” from what I’ve seen in Second Life and elsewhere an emic (or etic, for that matter) notion of manipulability has no inevitable corollary of seeing a virtual or actual world as infinitely plastic. Sometimes that’s presumed, sometimes not. 

When you speak about something that “most designers in Second Life probably realize implicitly,” what you assume is an emic category of “designer” that’s associated with craft and that misses broader cultural logics of craft in Second Life and beyond. Those who engage in craft need not see themselves as designers nor be seen as such by others. This is something that Cory Ondrejka and others note. In my book, where of course I do identify craft as something important, I find Cory quite useful in this regard (he was one of the first folks to really identify this notion of craft as important, and of course his role as a designer adds another level of significance). So I would see my own work as building upon and extending Cory’s important work. 

In my book, I suggest there are two directions in which discussions of craft might go in order to better understand the cultures of virtual worlds. One is production: that is, to think about the relationship between craft and labor (since in some economic writings they are separated through a limitation of craft to something like “handicraft,” that is, something outside circuits of production). The section is religion and the relation between craft and creation. I’m particularly interested in the book in linking this up to the Christian tradition, given the dominance of the West in the history of virtual worlds. Craft is crucial to this tradition in a range of ways (after all, Jesus was a carpenter!) that are fascinating to explore. 

It makes sense to me from what I’ve seen of other virtual worlds and online games that craft is broadly relevant in these online contexts. I would thus very much agree with your saying that “playing WoW, even the most repetitive grinding aspect of it, features a strong element of craft work.” After all, as you note in the title of the post (but not in the post itself), it is called World of War “craft!” 

If you find Sennett useful, you may also want to take a look at Malcolm McCullough’s fascinating book Abstracting Craft: The Practiced Digital Hand (MIT, 1996).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting post; once again I’m flattered. You say with regard to the idea “that ideas of creativity are paramount” that “this point of view… treats the world as full of inert objects that are infinitely plastic and submit to human manipulation,” but you don’t substantiate that assertion. In particular, while you string together “infinitely plastic” and “submit to human manipulation,” from what I’ve seen in Second Life and elsewhere an emic (or etic, for that matter) notion of manipulability has no inevitable corollary of seeing a virtual or actual world as infinitely plastic. Sometimes that’s presumed, sometimes not. </p>
<p>When you speak about something that “most designers in Second Life probably realize implicitly,” what you assume is an emic category of “designer” that’s associated with craft and that misses broader cultural logics of craft in Second Life and beyond. Those who engage in craft need not see themselves as designers nor be seen as such by others. This is something that Cory Ondrejka and others note. In my book, where of course I do identify craft as something important, I find Cory quite useful in this regard (he was one of the first folks to really identify this notion of craft as important, and of course his role as a designer adds another level of significance). So I would see my own work as building upon and extending Cory’s important work. </p>
<p>In my book, I suggest there are two directions in which discussions of craft might go in order to better understand the cultures of virtual worlds. One is production: that is, to think about the relationship between craft and labor (since in some economic writings they are separated through a limitation of craft to something like “handicraft,” that is, something outside circuits of production). The section is religion and the relation between craft and creation. I’m particularly interested in the book in linking this up to the Christian tradition, given the dominance of the West in the history of virtual worlds. Craft is crucial to this tradition in a range of ways (after all, Jesus was a carpenter!) that are fascinating to explore. </p>
<p>It makes sense to me from what I’ve seen of other virtual worlds and online games that craft is broadly relevant in these online contexts. I would thus very much agree with your saying that “playing WoW, even the most repetitive grinding aspect of it, features a strong element of craft work.” After all, as you note in the title of the post (but not in the post itself), it is called World of War “craft!” </p>
<p>If you find Sennett useful, you may also want to take a look at Malcolm McCullough’s fascinating book Abstracting Craft: The Practiced Digital Hand (MIT, 1996).
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-404710</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-404710</guid>
		<description>Sorry Kate -- I suppose the post is a little &#039;experience near&#039; :)

Kerim -- I wish that Tom had more directly engaged Cory&#039;s work, since Cory is himself a theorist of SL, but since Tom was doing &#039;Island ethnography&#039; I guess it wasn&#039;t in his purview to take a look at who made the island, beyond the citations to Cory&#039;s work that Tom does (in all fairness) make. Its another example of CASL running afould of the sort of theorization of &#039;the field&#039; that Gupta, Ferguson, Marcus etc. have been tring to rethink. 

I think that the term &#039;creationist capitalism&#039; does capture much of the &#039;creation ideology&#039; of SL, although I must say that of all of the parts of CASL this section was the most tantalizing and, in many ways, the least worked out in its reference to &quot;Christian metaphysics&quot; and Marxism. I think overall I&#039;d say that I would be much more willing to take issue with Second Lifers&#039; self-understanding, whereas Tom does not want to make ethical or ontological judgments about his informants beliefs and actions (except *ahem* some of the time...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Kate &#8212; I suppose the post is a little &#8216;experience near&#8217; :)</p>
<p>Kerim &#8212; I wish that Tom had more directly engaged Cory&#8217;s work, since Cory is himself a theorist of SL, but since Tom was doing &#8216;Island ethnography&#8217; I guess it wasn&#8217;t in his purview to take a look at who made the island, beyond the citations to Cory&#8217;s work that Tom does (in all fairness) make. Its another example of CASL running afould of the sort of theorization of &#8216;the field&#8217; that Gupta, Ferguson, Marcus etc. have been tring to rethink. </p>
<p>I think that the term &#8216;creationist capitalism&#8217; does capture much of the &#8216;creation ideology&#8217; of SL, although I must say that of all of the parts of CASL this section was the most tantalizing and, in many ways, the least worked out in its reference to &#8220;Christian metaphysics&#8221; and Marxism. I think overall I&#8217;d say that I would be much more willing to take issue with Second Lifers&#8217; self-understanding, whereas Tom does not want to make ethical or ontological judgments about his informants beliefs and actions (except *ahem* some of the time&#8230;)
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		<title>By: Kate G</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-404683</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-404683</guid>
		<description>Great post, Rex, but you might include footnotes to explain things like &quot;grinding XP.&quot;  You ARE into WoW, aren&#039;t you?

Sennett sounds well worth reading.  As you&#039;ve described it, it explicates my experiences of gardening and cooking very well.  I have a vision, but the physical materials have their own rules.  I think of gardening, especially, as art with/vs. science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Rex, but you might include footnotes to explain things like &#8220;grinding XP.&#8221;  You ARE into WoW, aren&#8217;t you?</p>
<p>Sennett sounds well worth reading.  As you&#8217;ve described it, it explicates my experiences of gardening and cooking very well.  I have a vision, but the physical materials have their own rules.  I think of gardening, especially, as art with/vs. science.
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		<title>By: Kerim</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2008/06/24/warcraft-and-the-craftsman-grinding-crafting-and-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-404420</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=1280#comment-404420</guid>
		<description>Excellent post. But while you contrast this book with Coming of Age in Second Life, I notice you don&#039;t directly mention the passages in CASL where Boellstorff makes claims about the creative economy of Second Life -  what he calls &quot;Creationist Capitalism.&quot; Do you think that Boellstorff is doing something different from Cory Ondrejka? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post. But while you contrast this book with Coming of Age in Second Life, I notice you don&#8217;t directly mention the passages in CASL where Boellstorff makes claims about the creative economy of Second Life &#8211;  what he calls &#8220;Creationist Capitalism.&#8221; Do you think that Boellstorff is doing something different from Cory Ondrejka?
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