Comments on: Human Terrain and the IRB Puzzle http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/ Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog Sat, 20 Mar 2010 16:28:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Laura http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-132727 Laura Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:41:43 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-132727 All this points to the larger problem of how ethical standards are institutionalized, which is one of those topics that we'll continue to grapple with long after this incident is behind us. Honestly, the more I learn about HTS, the more confused I get about it. Nice work, Strong - keep on this. All this points to the larger problem of how ethical standards are institutionalized, which is one of those topics that we’ll continue to grapple with long after this incident is behind us.

Honestly, the more I learn about HTS, the more confused I get about it.

Nice work, Strong – keep on this.

]]> By: Strong http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-132594 Strong Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:13:53 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-132594 Thanks for your helpful post. Yes, in what I have written above, I refer to what is 'typically understood' about exemption from IRB review. It is helpful to know more of the background of this understanding, so thank you. As I said in the post, I am trying to find out how the people involved understand the situation. I am less concerned with my own interpretations than with _theirs_. Thanks for your helpful post. Yes, in what I have written above, I refer to what is ‘typically understood’ about exemption from IRB review. It is helpful to know more of the background of this understanding, so thank you. As I said in the post, I am trying to find out how the people involved understand the situation. I am less concerned with my own interpretations than with _theirs_.

]]> By: Zachary Schrag http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-132560 Zachary Schrag Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:05:52 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-132560 I believe you are confusing the regulations with certain interpretations of those regulations--yours and OHRP's. Please see my blog post, http://institutionalreviewblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/pentagon-says-irb-review-not-needed-for.html, for more details. Best, Zachary Schrag I believe you are confusing the regulations with certain interpretations of those regulations–yours and OHRP’s. Please see my blog post, http://institutionalreviewblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/pentagon-says-irb-review-not-needed-for.html, for more details.

Best,

Zachary Schrag

]]> By: Strong http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-131799 Strong Tue, 23 Oct 2007 20:09:04 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-131799 Thanks LL and others. I have been away from the internet for a few days while traveling. I do hope to follow this inquiry a bit further and will provide further updates as things become clearer. Thanks LL and others. I have been away from the internet for a few days while traveling. I do hope to follow this inquiry a bit further and will provide further updates as things become clearer.

]]> By: buddh•ism ad•junkt › IRBs and Anthropological Research in War Zones http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-131712 buddh•ism ad•junkt › IRBs and Anthropological Research in War Zones Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:13:18 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-131712 [...] Strong’s original piece in Savage [...] [...] Strong’s original piece in Savage [...]

]]> By: L.L. Wynn http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-131418 L.L. Wynn Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:52:59 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-131418 Strong, your post here has been cited in an article on Inside Higher Ed (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/10/22/anthro) Strong, your post here has been cited in an article on Inside Higher Ed (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/10/22/anthro)

]]> By: Laurie http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-130759 Laurie Mon, 22 Oct 2007 03:18:30 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-130759 Excellent post by Strong about the legal and jurisdictional issues. Who's in charge here? DoD? BAE? AAA? Have been too busy doing my 150 jump squats and pedagogy of the oppressed essay to atone for previous ad hominem posts to post much here.... Excellent post by Strong about the legal and jurisdictional issues. Who’s in charge here? DoD? BAE? AAA?

Have been too busy doing my 150 jump squats and pedagogy of the oppressed essay to atone for previous ad hominem posts to post much here….

]]> By: Laura http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-130461 Laura Sun, 21 Oct 2007 14:21:55 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-130461 Judy, I didn't say that money shouldn't be part of the discussion. It's part of that complicated picture that Strong talks about. But we're anthropologists, right? Reducing complex situations to single variables and motivations, and pinning those on an individual that most of us have never met, isn't what we're trained to do. Let's not do it here. Jeff, to the jump squats and essay I'd add wind sprints and a Powerpoint presentation on Chomsky's _Problems of Knowledge and Freedom_. Judy, I didn’t say that money shouldn’t be part of the discussion. It’s part of that complicated picture that Strong talks about.

But we’re anthropologists, right? Reducing complex situations to single variables and motivations, and pinning those on an individual that most of us have never met, isn’t what we’re trained to do. Let’s not do it here.

Jeff, to the jump squats and essay I’d add wind sprints and a Powerpoint presentation on Chomsky’s _Problems of Knowledge and Freedom_.

]]> By: judy t http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-130429 judy t Sun, 21 Oct 2007 13:03:09 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-130429 It is interesting that Americans are comfortable viewing high paid Blackwater contractors as having different "patriotic" motivations than army soldiers, but we can't think this way about anthropologists contractors? Why? Blackwater shooters earn $200,000 a year and these anthropologist contractors must be earning something like this too. This should be part of the discussion. It is interesting that Americans are comfortable viewing high paid Blackwater contractors as having different “patriotic” motivations than army soldiers, but we can’t think this way about anthropologists contractors?

Why?

Blackwater shooters earn $200,000 a year and these anthropologist contractors must be earning something like this too. This should be part of the discussion.

]]> By: Jeff M http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-130258 Jeff M Sun, 21 Oct 2007 05:58:45 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-130258 BBH - Dittoes on what Laura said. Shame on you! Standard penance for the crime of _ad homicide_ is 150 jump squats and an essay in your own words on how Paulo Friere's concept of "dialogue":http://www.marxists.org/subject/education/freire/pedagogy/ch03.htm relates to our community project of ending the Global War on Terror. BBH -

Dittoes on what Laura said. Shame on you!

Standard penance for the crime of _ad homicide_ is 150 jump squats and an essay in your own words on how Paulo Friere’s concept of “dialogue”:http://www.marxists.org/subject/education/freire/pedagogy/ch03.htm relates to our community project of ending the Global War on Terror.

]]> By: Laura http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-130194 Laura Sun, 21 Oct 2007 03:34:10 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-130194 BBH, I think this is unfair to Marcus Griffin. Ad hominem attacks like the one you just leveled don't get the discipline anywhere. You just lowered the bar straight into the basement when it comes to intelligent discussion about the relationship between anthropology and the military - and ironically, you've done precisely the opposite of what Strong advocates. Like a lot of anthropologists, I've got plenty of questions about the HTS program. But it's simply not productive to engage in such virulently personal attacks on people who've made decisions that I might not make myself. Why not give Griffin the benefit of the doubt? Maybe he's not in it for the money. Maybe he's really trying to do something about the violence on the ground in Iraq. It's really easy for those of us who've decided that HTS is 'wrong' (whatever that means) to rip people like Griffin apart without ever meeting the guy or engaging in a conversation with him to really understand what is reasoning is. He's certainly not the only person who believes that anthropologists might in some small way help minimize casualties to US and Iraqi civilians, and I doubt he's the only anthropologist who thinks so. As Strong has pointed out so elegantly, "..it is vital that we calmly and carefully produce a complete picture of the situation rather than simply cast aspersions." That's a mantra worth repeating. BBH, I think this is unfair to Marcus Griffin. Ad hominem attacks like the one you just leveled don’t get the discipline anywhere. You just lowered the bar straight into the basement when it comes to intelligent discussion about the relationship between anthropology and the military – and ironically, you’ve done precisely the opposite of what Strong advocates.

Like a lot of anthropologists, I’ve got plenty of questions about the HTS program. But it’s simply not productive to engage in such virulently personal attacks on people who’ve made decisions that I might not make myself. Why not give Griffin the benefit of the doubt? Maybe he’s not in it for the money. Maybe he’s really trying to do something about the violence on the ground in Iraq. It’s really easy for those of us who’ve decided that HTS is ‘wrong’ (whatever that means) to rip people like Griffin apart without ever meeting the guy or engaging in a conversation with him to really understand what is reasoning is. He’s certainly not the only person who believes that anthropologists might in some small way help minimize casualties to US and Iraqi civilians, and I doubt he’s the only anthropologist who thinks so.

As Strong has pointed out so elegantly, “..it is vital that we calmly and carefully produce a complete picture of the situation rather than simply cast aspersions.” That’s a mantra worth repeating.

]]> By: bbh http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-129671 bbh Sat, 20 Oct 2007 05:06:19 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-129671 nice research. Griffin is in it for the tax free big bucks. He doesn't give a crap about ethics and won't take any responsibility for not considering the ethics of what he does, he's turned those decisions over the McFate. McFate's at war, so she can't be bothered with ethics. nice research. Griffin is in it for the tax free big bucks. He doesn’t give a crap about ethics and won’t take any responsibility for not considering the ethics of what he does, he’s turned those decisions over the McFate. McFate’s at war, so she can’t be bothered with ethics.

]]> By: L.L. Wynn http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-129028 L.L. Wynn Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:54:49 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-129028 Thanks, Strong, for going to the considerable effort to research this question and report on it. It grounds the discussion about the ethics of anthropologists working for the military in some useful, concrete facts. Thanks, Strong, for going to the considerable effort to research this question and report on it. It grounds the discussion about the ethics of anthropologists working for the military in some useful, concrete facts.

]]> By: Scott Sommers http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-128990 Scott Sommers Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:34:04 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2007/10/18/human-terrain-and-the-irb-puzzle/#comment-128990 There was a time I believed that real scientific analysis of the situation would have produced much better recommendations than the CIA briefly meeting with Iraq exiles. But at that time, no one was interested in what a bunch of ivory tower social scientists were saying. I'm puzzled by why the decision to do this is being made now. This is obviously not a first choice solution to the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. The initial perception was clearly that military and professional managers could handle these problems. The incorporation of social scientists into the war is not a well thought out partnership. It's a last ditch attempt to handle a war that's grown so far out of control that conventional solutions appear useless. I share the concern of the image that will be left by this experiment. After all, it's not uncommon to perceive journalists and aid workers as spies. There was a time I believed that real scientific analysis of the situation would have produced much better recommendations than the CIA briefly meeting with Iraq exiles. But at that time, no one was interested in what a bunch of ivory tower social scientists were saying. I’m puzzled by why the decision to do this is being made now. This is obviously not a first choice solution to the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. The initial perception was clearly that military and professional managers could handle these problems. The incorporation of social scientists into the war is not a well thought out partnership. It’s a last ditch attempt to handle a war that’s grown so far out of control that conventional solutions appear useless. I share the concern of the image that will be left by this experiment. After all, it’s not uncommon to perceive journalists and aid workers as spies.

]]>