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	<title>Comments on: Jonathan Marks on the war in Iraq</title>
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	<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/</link>
	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog</description>
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		<title>By: peanut</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-129860</link>
		<dc:creator>peanut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/#comment-129860</guid>
		<description>Dr Agoglia: Please clarify for us how fighting in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan bears a relationship to freedom of speech. 

Your comment leads me to highlight a second important issue: It is not clear if HTS &quot;anthropologists&quot; are US military personnel, or if they are US military contractors. Though this legal question is not completely clear, we certainly must not confuse critique or even condemnation of the HTS program (and critiques of individual HTS workers) with a condemnation of those who wear US uniforms AS US SERVICE MEN AND WOMEN. HTS workers seem to be civilians trained in anthropology or other social sciences who have freely chosen to enter a war zone for what must be substantial profit. They are qualified for these jobs because they are anthropologists, and we, their anthropological colleagues are qualified to critique them. One need not point out that a PhD in anthropology can only be earned in &quot;the ivory tower,&quot; if that&#039;s what university anthropology departments are called now.

Clearly, HTS may involve substantial outside consultancy (or is McFate directly employed by the US govt?) and contract work (as HTS employees are apparently now recruited through BAE). The HTS &quot;anthropologists&quot; are not, and do not become, AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL, US service people. They remain distinct from the Army and Navy trained linguists, those trained through the US government intelligence community, etc. Again, the legal dynamics of these employment schemes are unclear. They are frequently compared to &quot;embedded journalists,&quot; yet the parallel is flawed. As far as I know, embedded journalists are not paid by the US govt (or subcontractors). Some transparency about the details of HTS worker employment might shed some light on the ethical issues at stake for anthropologists.

Anthropologists as military contractors would occupy a strange legal position, raising questions about employee rights and intellectual property. Are they serving in the military? Are they civilians?  If wounded in the line of work are they eligible for vetrans&#039; benefits? Worker&#039;s comp? Who can Dr. Griffin&#039;s siblings sue were he to be killed in the line of research? 

Is HTS workers&#039; research subject to IRB approval? Is it proprietary research, the results of which are the intellectual property of their employer, or can they publish? If they publish, will the decision of what results to publish be theirs alone, or will they be approved by the for-profit military contract agency they work for? The US military?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Agoglia: Please clarify for us how fighting in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan bears a relationship to freedom of speech. </p>
<p>Your comment leads me to highlight a second important issue: It is not clear if HTS &#8220;anthropologists&#8221; are US military personnel, or if they are US military contractors. Though this legal question is not completely clear, we certainly must not confuse critique or even condemnation of the HTS program (and critiques of individual HTS workers) with a condemnation of those who wear US uniforms AS US SERVICE MEN AND WOMEN. HTS workers seem to be civilians trained in anthropology or other social sciences who have freely chosen to enter a war zone for what must be substantial profit. They are qualified for these jobs because they are anthropologists, and we, their anthropological colleagues are qualified to critique them. One need not point out that a PhD in anthropology can only be earned in &#8220;the ivory tower,&#8221; if that&#8217;s what university anthropology departments are called now.</p>
<p>Clearly, HTS may involve substantial outside consultancy (or is McFate directly employed by the US govt?) and contract work (as HTS employees are apparently now recruited through BAE). The HTS &#8220;anthropologists&#8221; are not, and do not become, AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL, US service people. They remain distinct from the Army and Navy trained linguists, those trained through the US government intelligence community, etc. Again, the legal dynamics of these employment schemes are unclear. They are frequently compared to &#8220;embedded journalists,&#8221; yet the parallel is flawed. As far as I know, embedded journalists are not paid by the US govt (or subcontractors). Some transparency about the details of HTS worker employment might shed some light on the ethical issues at stake for anthropologists.</p>
<p>Anthropologists as military contractors would occupy a strange legal position, raising questions about employee rights and intellectual property. Are they serving in the military? Are they civilians?  If wounded in the line of work are they eligible for vetrans&#8217; benefits? Worker&#8217;s comp? Who can Dr. Griffin&#8217;s siblings sue were he to be killed in the line of research? </p>
<p>Is HTS workers&#8217; research subject to IRB approval? Is it proprietary research, the results of which are the intellectual property of their employer, or can they publish? If they publish, will the decision of what results to publish be theirs alone, or will they be approved by the for-profit military contract agency they work for? The US military?</p>
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		<title>By: Elktor</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-129608</link>
		<dc:creator>Elktor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/#comment-129608</guid>
		<description>Dr. Agoglia wants to pull a few of Dr. Marks teeth.  Nobody disses her brother like that. Nobody. McFate&#039;s story doesn&#039;t add up. No matter how many lies her brother and McFate are exposed as telling in a single broadcast, you are not allowed to point these out unless you have left the ivory tower and put on a uniform. Only those in uniform have earned the freedom to lie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Agoglia wants to pull a few of Dr. Marks teeth.  Nobody disses her brother like that. Nobody. McFate&#8217;s story doesn&#8217;t add up. No matter how many lies her brother and McFate are exposed as telling in a single broadcast, you are not allowed to point these out unless you have left the ivory tower and put on a uniform. Only those in uniform have earned the freedom to lie.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Kathleen Agoglia</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-129581</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Kathleen Agoglia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/#comment-129581</guid>
		<description>Quite honestly you should stay on sabbatical..you sound like a moron... you and all the other academic nudnicks who sit in the quiet comfort of your pompous ivory towers couldn&#039;t shine my brother&#039;s shoes or those of any of my former soldiers. 
Try on the uniform for size..rather than constantly criticize those that are protecting your freedom of speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite honestly you should stay on sabbatical..you sound like a moron&#8230; you and all the other academic nudnicks who sit in the quiet comfort of your pompous ivory towers couldn&#8217;t shine my brother&#8217;s shoes or those of any of my former soldiers.<br />
Try on the uniform for size..rather than constantly criticize those that are protecting your freedom of speech.</p>
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		<title>By: Marshant</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-128790</link>
		<dc:creator>Marshant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/#comment-128790</guid>
		<description>John, your free translations make no sense.  They&#039;re so off the mark that I have a hard time taking your analysis seriously.

Why don&#039;t you try again - this time, read the words and try to understand the intention behind them without seeing them through the lens of your opposition to the war in Iraq.

Just another little exercise in objectivity.  Care to get a bit sweaty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, your free translations make no sense.  They&#8217;re so off the mark that I have a hard time taking your analysis seriously.</p>
<p>Why don&#8217;t you try again &#8211; this time, read the words and try to understand the intention behind them without seeing them through the lens of your opposition to the war in Iraq.</p>
<p>Just another little exercise in objectivity.  Care to get a bit sweaty?</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-128770</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Gilbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/#comment-128770</guid>
		<description>All:

I&#039;m just glad Jonathan Marks has chosen to say something about military anthropologists, and has chosen to respond to the remarks.  We need to hear more from him and people like him!
Anne Gilbert</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just glad Jonathan Marks has chosen to say something about military anthropologists, and has chosen to respond to the remarks.  We need to hear more from him and people like him!<br />
Anne Gilbert</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Marks</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-128536</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/#comment-128536</guid>
		<description>I assumed, apparently mistakenly, that that comment would be transparently facetious, so in deference to L. L. Wynn’s request I will elaborate.  In 1979, William Arens from Stony Brook wrote The Man-Eating Myth, which argued that (weak form) cannibalism is a powerful dehumanizing accusation and its prevalence ethnographically has been greatly overestimated, or that (strong form) in non-starvation or non-sociopathic contexts, cannibalism doesn’t exist.  I think the strong version has been debunked, but the weak version is an important corrective to the uncritical acceptance of a symbolically powerful cultural narrative.  In the early 1990s, geneticists proposed going out to the indigenous peoples of the world and bringing their blood back to Palo Alto to be studied, and wanted piles of federal money to do this, but not have to worry about the cultural or bioethical issues it raised.  Nancy Scheper-Hughes wrote an article about the same time in Anthropology Today called “Theft of Life” in which she discussed the beliefs that diverse poor people around the world have, that rich Americans want to steal their body parts for nefarious magical purposes (and then she began studying the trans-national trade in body parts).  In 1997, a paleontologist friend of mine and a couple of his graduate students were abducted at gunpoint from his site in Kenya by a local paramilitary group, who were stimulated by the belief that they were there to drink the blood of local babies.  I don’t think he told them, “We’re paleontologists – it’s the geneticists that you want!” but I wouldn’t blame him if he had.  In fact at the Musee de l’Homme a few years ago, part of the lovely human biology exhibit incorporated those ideas, referring to “Les Vampires de la Genetique”.
  
   The geneticists finally got their project in 2005, but privately funded, and called The Genographic Project.  They are now advertising that for $50k they will fly you on a private jet and analyze your DNA while you actually get to see poor people first-hand, whose DNA is already incorporated into their narrative of human migrations.  I call this “hemo-tourism”.

Chimpanzees kill adults and infants, but only eat the infants.  Go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assumed, apparently mistakenly, that that comment would be transparently facetious, so in deference to L. L. Wynn’s request I will elaborate.  In 1979, William Arens from Stony Brook wrote The Man-Eating Myth, which argued that (weak form) cannibalism is a powerful dehumanizing accusation and its prevalence ethnographically has been greatly overestimated, or that (strong form) in non-starvation or non-sociopathic contexts, cannibalism doesn’t exist.  I think the strong version has been debunked, but the weak version is an important corrective to the uncritical acceptance of a symbolically powerful cultural narrative.  In the early 1990s, geneticists proposed going out to the indigenous peoples of the world and bringing their blood back to Palo Alto to be studied, and wanted piles of federal money to do this, but not have to worry about the cultural or bioethical issues it raised.  Nancy Scheper-Hughes wrote an article about the same time in Anthropology Today called “Theft of Life” in which she discussed the beliefs that diverse poor people around the world have, that rich Americans want to steal their body parts for nefarious magical purposes (and then she began studying the trans-national trade in body parts).  In 1997, a paleontologist friend of mine and a couple of his graduate students were abducted at gunpoint from his site in Kenya by a local paramilitary group, who were stimulated by the belief that they were there to drink the blood of local babies.  I don’t think he told them, “We’re paleontologists – it’s the geneticists that you want!” but I wouldn’t blame him if he had.  In fact at the Musee de l’Homme a few years ago, part of the lovely human biology exhibit incorporated those ideas, referring to “Les Vampires de la Genetique”.</p>
<p>   The geneticists finally got their project in 2005, but privately funded, and called The Genographic Project.  They are now advertising that for $50k they will fly you on a private jet and analyze your DNA while you actually get to see poor people first-hand, whose DNA is already incorporated into their narrative of human migrations.  I call this “hemo-tourism”.</p>
<p>Chimpanzees kill adults and infants, but only eat the infants.  Go figure.</p>
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		<title>By: L.L. Wynn</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-128426</link>
		<dc:creator>L.L. Wynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/#comment-128426</guid>
		<description>You worry about whether American soldiers are *eating* Iraqis?  That&#039;s very intriguing.  I hope you will expand upon that soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You worry about whether American soldiers are *eating* Iraqis?  That&#8217;s very intriguing.  I hope you will expand upon that soon.</p>
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		<title>By: tip of the tongue</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-128420</link>
		<dc:creator>tip of the tongue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/10/17/jonathan-marks-on-the-war-in-iraq/#comment-128420</guid>
		<description>Thank you for bringing this back from vague generalities to concrete details. 

On principal, I am not convinced by grand proclamations like &quot;Anthropological involvement with the military is always unethical.&quot; But when you marshal verifiable facts about a particular instance into a coherent argument, my ears are open. And what you have written here has almost convinced me that HTS just might be bad news.

Sadly, Jon Marks won&#039;t read this comment. On principal, since it&#039;s written under a pseudonym. Maybe others can relay to Mr. Marks my gratitude. For myself, I believe that some conversations cannot be truly open without anonymity. And this is a conversation that needs to be open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for bringing this back from vague generalities to concrete details. </p>
<p>On principal, I am not convinced by grand proclamations like &#8220;Anthropological involvement with the military is always unethical.&#8221; But when you marshal verifiable facts about a particular instance into a coherent argument, my ears are open. And what you have written here has almost convinced me that HTS just might be bad news.</p>
<p>Sadly, Jon Marks won&#8217;t read this comment. On principal, since it&#8217;s written under a pseudonym. Maybe others can relay to Mr. Marks my gratitude. For myself, I believe that some conversations cannot be truly open without anonymity. And this is a conversation that needs to be open.</p>
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