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	<title>Comments on: Professor Griffin Goes to Baghdad</title>
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	<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/</link>
	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Ethnography.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On the Cover of the Rolling Stone</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-590354</link>
		<dc:creator>Ethnography.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On the Cover of the Rolling Stone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-590354</guid>
		<description>[...] Marcus Griffin, still in the field (and with his blog under construction), is quoted in the article, as well as Matt Tompkins, who has now returned from Iraq, and whose fiancée, Zenia Helbig, was not only one of the academics whose background in the Middle East made her suspect to the military, but also one of the scholars who addressed the AAA meetings about HTS last fall. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Marcus Griffin, still in the field (and with his blog under construction), is quoted in the article, as well as Matt Tompkins, who has now returned from Iraq, and whose fiancée, Zenia Helbig, was not only one of the academics whose background in the Middle East made her suspect to the military, but also one of the scholars who addressed the AAA meetings about HTS last fall. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-112763</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-112763</guid>
		<description>Im not sure if its even worth responding to such a post; one seemingly written by a person clearly indoctrinated and passionate about the kinds of &quot;peace&quot; and &quot;freedom&quot; American foreign policy attempts to cram into spaces where it just doesn&#039;t jive. It is very difficult to achieve any notion of peace, although, peace and freedom of any sort are not the politcal objectives, as we all know) by killing and, likewise, freedom by imprisoning. 

However, Doc, eloquently calls into question the impact of anthropology and, although s/he grossly underestimiates it, I think this a vital criticism.  I am interested in finding creative ways of engaging the wider public more directly. Outside of my university, little is know about anthropology and what potetential it has. With the other posts regarding free access to journals taken together with the issues discussed in this post, it seems there is a need for students and professionals to develop strategies for reaching out to communitites. 

Are there some people here have tried? Ideas? I am both troubled by this problem and, simultaneously, excited about the potential anthropology has in making an impact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Im not sure if its even worth responding to such a post; one seemingly written by a person clearly indoctrinated and passionate about the kinds of &#8220;peace&#8221; and &#8220;freedom&#8221; American foreign policy attempts to cram into spaces where it just doesn&#8217;t jive. It is very difficult to achieve any notion of peace, although, peace and freedom of any sort are not the politcal objectives, as we all know) by killing and, likewise, freedom by imprisoning. </p>
<p>However, Doc, eloquently calls into question the impact of anthropology and, although s/he grossly underestimiates it, I think this a vital criticism.  I am interested in finding creative ways of engaging the wider public more directly. Outside of my university, little is know about anthropology and what potetential it has. With the other posts regarding free access to journals taken together with the issues discussed in this post, it seems there is a need for students and professionals to develop strategies for reaching out to communitites. </p>
<p>Are there some people here have tried? Ideas? I am both troubled by this problem and, simultaneously, excited about the potential anthropology has in making an impact.</p>
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		<title>By: Doc</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-112756</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-112756</guid>
		<description>You Poindexters with all your hand wringing have no impact on what we will and will not do with ethnography in the long war.  Keep crying all you want, it doesn&#039;t really matter, we have moved far beyond your limited understanding of culture.  Human Terrain is here and it isn&#039;t going to go away and you can&#039;t control what we do with it.  If anthropology departments don&#039;t want to train us, we can train ourselves.  Believe me, we already are.  You all pretend to believe in academic freedom, but when you find programs trying to shape the world in ways you don&#039;t like you invent new &quot;ethics&quot; to limit the academic freedom of those you oppose.  We are the future of ethnography, recording and tracking cultural values with tools that make your listing of fieldwork equipment look like children&#039;s toys.  But what you all miss is that our mission is peace, and we serve the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.  Our mission is not occupation, it is freedom.  You make me laugh, spending so much time worrying about &quot;ethics&quot; sitting in your cozy homes and offices; get out in the field and you will see that this is war, and you have no say about what we will use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You Poindexters with all your hand wringing have no impact on what we will and will not do with ethnography in the long war.  Keep crying all you want, it doesn&#8217;t really matter, we have moved far beyond your limited understanding of culture.  Human Terrain is here and it isn&#8217;t going to go away and you can&#8217;t control what we do with it.  If anthropology departments don&#8217;t want to train us, we can train ourselves.  Believe me, we already are.  You all pretend to believe in academic freedom, but when you find programs trying to shape the world in ways you don&#8217;t like you invent new &#8220;ethics&#8221; to limit the academic freedom of those you oppose.  We are the future of ethnography, recording and tracking cultural values with tools that make your listing of fieldwork equipment look like children&#8217;s toys.  But what you all miss is that our mission is peace, and we serve the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.  Our mission is not occupation, it is freedom.  You make me laugh, spending so much time worrying about &#8220;ethics&#8221; sitting in your cozy homes and offices; get out in the field and you will see that this is war, and you have no say about what we will use.</p>
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		<title>By: pamela</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-112236</link>
		<dc:creator>pamela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 23:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-112236</guid>
		<description>One should not forget that the anthropologist also must consider the feelings of the anthropologist. Self harm is no justice neither!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One should not forget that the anthropologist also must consider the feelings of the anthropologist. Self harm is no justice neither!</p>
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		<title>By: oneman</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-112164</link>
		<dc:creator>oneman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-112164</guid>
		<description>Fuji asks: &lt;blockquote&gt;Am I reading you right, in that since the employers have the power, and the employees do not, the employees are the only ones who are entitled to informed consent?&lt;/blockquote&gt;I&#039;m not sure how you got that from what I wrote, but in any cas, no that&#039;s not what I&#039;m saying.  Employers are people; Wal-Mart isn&#039;t. People, not abstract entities, deserve informed consent consideration.  

That consideration doesn&#039;t mean that their informed consent is an absolute requirement, though -- it&#039;s ethics, not God&#039;s Law. I can&#039;t imagine a Wal-Mart executive consenting to research -- ethnographic or journalstic, whichever -- by someone not explicitly sympathetic to Wal-Mart&#039;s aims.  And the conditions of working life in a big corporation like Wal-Mart are definitely worth studying, so there&#039;s a quagmire.  I think here we anthros can, in fact, learn something from the journalists, or rather their editors and publishers, who double-check their sources before publication. Perhaps some sort of &quot;after-the-fact&quot; consent is called for? Ehrenreich did, in fact, tell her co-workers what she was doing, after she left her jobs; I assume (or would like to believe) that she would have taken seriously any major objections to her publishing her work.  Corporations raise an interesting issue, though, in that there are many people who might be affected by one&#039;s research whom one never has any personal interaction with -- what sort of consideration do we owe them? 

Moving up the corporate ladder -- say, studying at a Wl-Mart corporate office -- intensifies these concerns, and since we anthros don&#039;t have much experience with that, there aren&#039;t a lot of guideposts along the way to help deal with them.  Working with direct consent means tying ourselves into exactly the kind of bind that Griffin has put himself into -- never knowing what information has been withheld or filtered in an attempt to shape our observations, and offering control of our results to parties for whom anthropological insight is not a guiding priority.  I&#039;d venture to say it would be illegal for a publicly-held corporation to knowingly admit a researcher into their ranks who was not explicitly for the goals of the corporation -- how would the work of an upper-management Ehrenreich increase shareholder value?  Can we simply accept that the law forbids us from doing some kinds of research? 

Of course, all this leads to the issue of protecting our subjects.  If my research would harm Wal-Mart&#039;s bottom line, am I justified in publishing it? If Griffin&#039;s work would harm the political careers of member of the current administration or of the military&#039;s leading figures, is he ethically required to sit on his results? If he sees himself as studying both the military and the Iraqis the military interfaces with, are his hands not doubly tied? What can he ethically say about anything? Is there a line he can walk that harms no one -- and is it anthropologically valid to walk that line?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fuji asks:<br />
<blockquote>Am I reading you right, in that since the employers have the power, and the employees do not, the employees are the only ones who are entitled to informed consent?</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure how you got that from what I wrote, but in any cas, no that&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m saying.  Employers are people; Wal-Mart isn&#8217;t. People, not abstract entities, deserve informed consent consideration.  </p>
<p>That consideration doesn&#8217;t mean that their informed consent is an absolute requirement, though &#8212; it&#8217;s ethics, not God&#8217;s Law. I can&#8217;t imagine a Wal-Mart executive consenting to research &#8212; ethnographic or journalstic, whichever &#8212; by someone not explicitly sympathetic to Wal-Mart&#8217;s aims.  And the conditions of working life in a big corporation like Wal-Mart are definitely worth studying, so there&#8217;s a quagmire.  I think here we anthros can, in fact, learn something from the journalists, or rather their editors and publishers, who double-check their sources before publication. Perhaps some sort of &#8220;after-the-fact&#8221; consent is called for? Ehrenreich did, in fact, tell her co-workers what she was doing, after she left her jobs; I assume (or would like to believe) that she would have taken seriously any major objections to her publishing her work.  Corporations raise an interesting issue, though, in that there are many people who might be affected by one&#8217;s research whom one never has any personal interaction with &#8212; what sort of consideration do we owe them? </p>
<p>Moving up the corporate ladder &#8212; say, studying at a Wl-Mart corporate office &#8212; intensifies these concerns, and since we anthros don&#8217;t have much experience with that, there aren&#8217;t a lot of guideposts along the way to help deal with them.  Working with direct consent means tying ourselves into exactly the kind of bind that Griffin has put himself into &#8212; never knowing what information has been withheld or filtered in an attempt to shape our observations, and offering control of our results to parties for whom anthropological insight is not a guiding priority.  I&#8217;d venture to say it would be illegal for a publicly-held corporation to knowingly admit a researcher into their ranks who was not explicitly for the goals of the corporation &#8212; how would the work of an upper-management Ehrenreich increase shareholder value?  Can we simply accept that the law forbids us from doing some kinds of research? </p>
<p>Of course, all this leads to the issue of protecting our subjects.  If my research would harm Wal-Mart&#8217;s bottom line, am I justified in publishing it? If Griffin&#8217;s work would harm the political careers of member of the current administration or of the military&#8217;s leading figures, is he ethically required to sit on his results? If he sees himself as studying both the military and the Iraqis the military interfaces with, are his hands not doubly tied? What can he ethically say about anything? Is there a line he can walk that harms no one &#8212; and is it anthropologically valid to walk that line?</p>
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		<title>By: Strong</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-112145</link>
		<dc:creator>Strong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-112145</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thank you Kurt.  Readers can link to the WSJ article here:&lt;br /&gt;
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118732042794000715.html&lt;br /&gt;
(Right now anyway, not sure if the article will end up behind a subscriber wall.)  I agree with your characterization here.  McFate et al are &quot;lone voice(s) in the wildnerness&quot; according to the WSJ and McFate is quoted simply mocking the principled and complex positions of anthropologists addressing US military operations and militarism.  It is still strange to note how much focus Dr. Griffin&#039;s hair cut gets and only reinforces my present perception that this is all about professors play-acting as soldiers.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As Oneman has so passionately argued here and elsewhere, there is no lack of relevant social science on Iraq, Iran, the middle east, etc.  The problem is that US political powers that be systematically ignore it, or else they mock it (McFate pictures anthros with signs that say, &#039;You suck&#039;).  See for example this blog item:&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/08/appeasement_finds_a_home_in_th.html&lt;br /&gt;
Which mocks anthropologist W O Beeman&#039;s suggestion that the US conduct diplomacy, well, diplomatically!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Stay tuned.  SavageMinds hopes to continue creating a forum for discussing this issue.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Kurt.  Readers can link to the WSJ article here:<br />
<a href="http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118732042794000715.html" rel="nofollow">http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118732042794000715.html</a><br />
(Right now anyway, not sure if the article will end up behind a subscriber wall.)  I agree with your characterization here.  McFate et al are &#8220;lone voice(s) in the wildnerness&#8221; according to the WSJ and McFate is quoted simply mocking the principled and complex positions of anthropologists addressing US military operations and militarism.  It is still strange to note how much focus Dr. Griffin&#8217;s hair cut gets and only reinforces my present perception that this is all about professors play-acting as soldiers.</p>
<p>As Oneman has so passionately argued here and elsewhere, there is no lack of relevant social science on Iraq, Iran, the middle east, etc.  The problem is that US political powers that be systematically ignore it, or else they mock it (McFate pictures anthros with signs that say, &#8216;You suck&#8217;).  See for example this blog item:<br />
<a href="http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/08/appeasement_finds_a_home_in_th.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/08/appeasement_finds_a_home_in_th.html</a><br />
Which mocks anthropologist W O Beeman&#8217;s suggestion that the US conduct diplomacy, well, diplomatically!</p>
<p>Stay tuned.  SavageMinds hopes to continue creating a forum for discussing this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Sebastian T.</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-112133</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Sebastian T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-112133</guid>
		<description>Yesterday&#039;s international editions of the Wall Street Journal had article on Griffin and the Human Terain systems. The Journals description held familiar to the 1930s and 1940s German Institut fur Deutsche Ostarbeit, which did like studies of enemies. I had not heard of these American program, and caming to savageminds to read more, but everythings I reading here agrees with my empression reading the Wall Street article: that it was really writen by someone in the Pentagon for all of its efforts to ignore the important question&#039;s raised by anthropologists here. It am a Pentagon press release. 

But perhaps most interesting is that when I was used search engines to search these Human Terain program, I founded this article from a month ago: http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/07/when-anthropolo.html     
 Read the comments by readers at pages bottom about Griffins misunderstandings of &#039;going natives&#039; and you will see that his post here about no time to answer these questions is at best half true. These is not new questions to him. Why must he not answer? Is he under orders from his officer to not answering, or does he know the answer and will not say? No answers to these questions are not acceptable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday&#8217;s international editions of the Wall Street Journal had article on Griffin and the Human Terain systems. The Journals description held familiar to the 1930s and 1940s German Institut fur Deutsche Ostarbeit, which did like studies of enemies. I had not heard of these American program, and caming to savageminds to read more, but everythings I reading here agrees with my empression reading the Wall Street article: that it was really writen by someone in the Pentagon for all of its efforts to ignore the important question&#8217;s raised by anthropologists here. It am a Pentagon press release. </p>
<p>But perhaps most interesting is that when I was used search engines to search these Human Terain program, I founded this article from a month ago: <a href="http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/07/when-anthropolo.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/07/when-anthropolo.html</a><br />
 Read the comments by readers at pages bottom about Griffins misunderstandings of &#8216;going natives&#8217; and you will see that his post here about no time to answer these questions is at best half true. These is not new questions to him. Why must he not answer? Is he under orders from his officer to not answering, or does he know the answer and will not say? No answers to these questions are not acceptable.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Nelson</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-111797</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-111797</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got a very bad feeling about all this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got a very bad feeling about all this.</p>
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		<title>By: Strong</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-111623</link>
		<dc:creator>Strong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-111623</guid>
		<description>bq. So, I would like this conversation to re-steer itself away from its pre-occupation with ethical policing and debilitating critique, and talk about what should be done, what can be done, in short, a plan. The Republicans don’t have a plan. The Democrats don’t have a plan. Anthropologists should step up and say, excuse me Mr. President, Madame Pelosi, WE HAVE A PLAN.

bq. but i don’t think we have one, will have one, or will even try to have one. instead, we want to make sure our bedsheets are clean.

I was referring to those statements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bq. So, I would like this conversation to re-steer itself away from its pre-occupation with ethical policing and debilitating critique, and talk about what should be done, what can be done, in short, a plan. The Republicans don’t have a plan. The Democrats don’t have a plan. Anthropologists should step up and say, excuse me Mr. President, Madame Pelosi, WE HAVE A PLAN.</p>
<p>bq. but i don’t think we have one, will have one, or will even try to have one. instead, we want to make sure our bedsheets are clean.</p>
<p>I was referring to those statements.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-111617</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-111617</guid>
		<description>!!!!!! that is suppose to be &quot;I do NOT believe the ends justify the means&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>!!!!!! that is suppose to be &#8220;I do NOT believe the ends justify the means&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-111616</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-111616</guid>
		<description>I do actually believe the ends justify the means- I am merely exploring the possibilities of ethical flexibilities when it comes to highly defensive institution that possibly hide behind a wall of ethics discourse. Absolutely, I feel infoormed consent and transparency are vital to social research; my comment is more of an exploration of ethical flexibility when it comes such places. I would not feel right about studying wal-mart (which would include its employees without their knowledge. 

I am wonder what strategies are out there for crossing barriers and gaining access into institutions and corporations (IMF? World Bank? CIA? Wal-Mart? military?; how can we study those who quite possibly manufacture so much hardship, rather than constantly studying those who sustain the hardship?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do actually believe the ends justify the means- I am merely exploring the possibilities of ethical flexibilities when it comes to highly defensive institution that possibly hide behind a wall of ethics discourse. Absolutely, I feel infoormed consent and transparency are vital to social research; my comment is more of an exploration of ethical flexibility when it comes such places. I would not feel right about studying wal-mart (which would include its employees without their knowledge. </p>
<p>I am wonder what strategies are out there for crossing barriers and gaining access into institutions and corporations (IMF? World Bank? CIA? Wal-Mart? military?; how can we study those who quite possibly manufacture so much hardship, rather than constantly studying those who sustain the hardship?</p>
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		<title>By: uiolliioo</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-111615</link>
		<dc:creator>uiolliioo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-111615</guid>
		<description>Strong: Pace uiolliioo, who seems to suggest that anthropologists should not be concerned about the professional standards of their discipline if they are not also ready to announce a solution to the world’s problems overall, then, this is not simply a matter of piety.

I think this is an unfair characterization of what I actually said. I do think anthropologists should be concerned with the professional standards of their discipline. But the professional standards anthropologists have set up aren&#039;t Moses&#039; law. The actual harm that Griffin or another American anthropologist can do in Iraq does not seem to be under discussion. Given the circumstances of his being in Iraq, what is the potential for harm, what is the potential for good? 

Most importantly, and again you mis-characterize what I said, I think it is less productive to spend so much time bitching about Griffin and other anthropologists who have decided to *do* something, and instead spend that time *doing* something themselves. But I don&#039;t see that. I don&#039;t see it on the Left, and I don&#039;t see it in Anthropology, and I&#039;m upset about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strong: Pace uiolliioo, who seems to suggest that anthropologists should not be concerned about the professional standards of their discipline if they are not also ready to announce a solution to the world’s problems overall, then, this is not simply a matter of piety.</p>
<p>I think this is an unfair characterization of what I actually said. I do think anthropologists should be concerned with the professional standards of their discipline. But the professional standards anthropologists have set up aren&#8217;t Moses&#8217; law. The actual harm that Griffin or another American anthropologist can do in Iraq does not seem to be under discussion. Given the circumstances of his being in Iraq, what is the potential for harm, what is the potential for good? </p>
<p>Most importantly, and again you mis-characterize what I said, I think it is less productive to spend so much time bitching about Griffin and other anthropologists who have decided to *do* something, and instead spend that time *doing* something themselves. But I don&#8217;t see that. I don&#8217;t see it on the Left, and I don&#8217;t see it in Anthropology, and I&#8217;m upset about it.</p>
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		<title>By: vandergraff</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-111614</link>
		<dc:creator>vandergraff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-111614</guid>
		<description>if you read the aaa&#039;s ethical statement you will see that there is no political distinction between the political goals of ethnographers. from the research description given here, it sounds as if the walmart ethnographer was conducting unethical research in ways similar to military anthropologists going native with enemy populations. both of these types of unethical ethnography are wrong and should be brought to the aaa&#039;s ethics board. joshua&#039;s &quot;ends justify the means&quot; path of essentializing walmart as a nonhuman entity does not hold water and can be used on any cultural formation. 

uiolliioo: i take no totalitarian position (read professor wheeler&#039;s post to see her own claims of nonexpertise on which i based my statement. if she wishes to correct my statement and claim expertise in anthropological ethics i will accept her claim). i also claim no expertise on military ethics, but note that whatever military ethics may be, they do not supplant anthropological ethics when anthropologists work for the military. i do agree with you that american anthropology does not have a plan, but without a plan all we will do is aid the military and cia as they carry out their plans of conquest. why should we do that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if you read the aaa&#8217;s ethical statement you will see that there is no political distinction between the political goals of ethnographers. from the research description given here, it sounds as if the walmart ethnographer was conducting unethical research in ways similar to military anthropologists going native with enemy populations. both of these types of unethical ethnography are wrong and should be brought to the aaa&#8217;s ethics board. joshua&#8217;s &#8220;ends justify the means&#8221; path of essentializing walmart as a nonhuman entity does not hold water and can be used on any cultural formation. </p>
<p>uiolliioo: i take no totalitarian position (read professor wheeler&#8217;s post to see her own claims of nonexpertise on which i based my statement. if she wishes to correct my statement and claim expertise in anthropological ethics i will accept her claim). i also claim no expertise on military ethics, but note that whatever military ethics may be, they do not supplant anthropological ethics when anthropologists work for the military. i do agree with you that american anthropology does not have a plan, but without a plan all we will do is aid the military and cia as they carry out their plans of conquest. why should we do that?</p>
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		<title>By: Fuji</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-111613</link>
		<dc:creator>Fuji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-111613</guid>
		<description>Oneman:  If it helps, she had decided to get the job at Walmart in order to keep studying the people from a Latin American country where she worked - she in essence followed them from the village to the US. Her co-workers knew about the research project, especially when she also returned with them to their hometowns in Latin America.  And I have obviously tried to obfuscate the scenario, so as not to reveal the person and subject - so don&#039;t wait for that ethnography on Walmart!  Yes, Wal-Mart is not a person, but the people who hired her and supervise her as workers are people.  Am I reading you right, in that since the employers have the power, and the employees do not, the employees are the only ones who are entitled to informed consent?  Again, my initial take on this was that it was not ethical, but that after much thinking am not so sure that it isn&#039;t right.
Cathy Small was the anthropologist who went undercover as a first-year (she wrote it under a pseudonym, and I don&#039;t remember that; I also did not read the book, only the NYT article so can&#039;t comment on it).  Asking junior faculty wouldn&#039;t reveal as much as actually living in the dorms.  I&#039;m not technically junior faculty anymore, but I am pretty involved with undergrads (since I coach a lax team) - it&#039;s one thing to hear students mention adderall abuse, especially during crunch times, and it&#039;s another to see how widespread it is on campus.  If Small had told the other first-years, oh, I&#039;m really a university professor, and just want to get the inside-scoop on your lives, I&#039;m sure she wouldn&#039;t have gotten too far.  Again, like the example I described, and Griffin&#039;s case, I am not sure about the ethics here (if she didn&#039;t ask about sex, drugs, and illegal activities, and kept secured data, I&#039;m thinking that she could have passed a human subjects review board).
In my classes, I make my majors get IRB permission; for intro, we read the AAA ethics, but since the class is bigger (30, don&#039;t want to overwhelm our HSRB), I write a class IRB and make sure that they stay within the parameters of our IRB. I think I&#039;ll use the SM archives the next time I have to teach this, to accompany the AAA ethics statement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oneman:  If it helps, she had decided to get the job at Walmart in order to keep studying the people from a Latin American country where she worked &#8211; she in essence followed them from the village to the US. Her co-workers knew about the research project, especially when she also returned with them to their hometowns in Latin America.  And I have obviously tried to obfuscate the scenario, so as not to reveal the person and subject &#8211; so don&#8217;t wait for that ethnography on Walmart!  Yes, Wal-Mart is not a person, but the people who hired her and supervise her as workers are people.  Am I reading you right, in that since the employers have the power, and the employees do not, the employees are the only ones who are entitled to informed consent?  Again, my initial take on this was that it was not ethical, but that after much thinking am not so sure that it isn&#8217;t right.<br />
Cathy Small was the anthropologist who went undercover as a first-year (she wrote it under a pseudonym, and I don&#8217;t remember that; I also did not read the book, only the NYT article so can&#8217;t comment on it).  Asking junior faculty wouldn&#8217;t reveal as much as actually living in the dorms.  I&#8217;m not technically junior faculty anymore, but I am pretty involved with undergrads (since I coach a lax team) &#8211; it&#8217;s one thing to hear students mention adderall abuse, especially during crunch times, and it&#8217;s another to see how widespread it is on campus.  If Small had told the other first-years, oh, I&#8217;m really a university professor, and just want to get the inside-scoop on your lives, I&#8217;m sure she wouldn&#8217;t have gotten too far.  Again, like the example I described, and Griffin&#8217;s case, I am not sure about the ethics here (if she didn&#8217;t ask about sex, drugs, and illegal activities, and kept secured data, I&#8217;m thinking that she could have passed a human subjects review board).<br />
In my classes, I make my majors get IRB permission; for intro, we read the AAA ethics, but since the class is bigger (30, don&#8217;t want to overwhelm our HSRB), I write a class IRB and make sure that they stay within the parameters of our IRB. I think I&#8217;ll use the SM archives the next time I have to teach this, to accompany the AAA ethics statement.</p>
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		<title>By: oneman</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/comment-page-1/#comment-111599</link>
		<dc:creator>oneman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/#comment-111599</guid>
		<description>On Wal-Mart: Wal-Mart is not a person, however the law is framed, and does not get ethical consideration.  If you could somehow get Wal-Mart, the corporation, to sign a consent form, I&#039;ll rethink that position.  HOWEVER, Wal-Mart -- not being a person and all -- is going to make for a pretty boring informant; it just sits there, hulking and silent.  I would think that any ethnography of Wal-Mart as an institution would probably involve talking to and otherwise working with it&#039;s *employees*, who *are* entitled to consideration in things like informed consent.   The general rule in my estimation is that people should be aware that they are taking part in a research project and that they should be informed as to the nature of that project -- unless there is no other way to gather important information. I think of anthropologists working with non-literate peoples who would not understand the concept of social scientific research and are told that we simply want to &quot;tell their story&quot; to the people back home, or the medical researcher who has to maintain some sort of control group and can&#039;t say &quot;this isn&#039;t real medicine, you&#039;re the control&quot; -- surely we&#039;ve had enough discussion here at SM of what constitutes informed consent to know that it&#039;s a fraught concept that acts as a guide and not a clear one at that.  I don&#039;t find anything wrong with Ehrenreich&#039;s approach overall -- she is pretty careful with private information, and she gathers an insider&#039;s view of the lower stretches of Wal-Mart employment that is important.  On the other hand, the anthro who went udecover as a frosh in her own school (_My Freshman Year_, I forget the author&#039;s name)? That I have problems with, ranging from her choice of schools -- doing research in  place where she has power over her subjects&#039; futures -- to the fact that there are dozens of ways similar information could be gathered, like asking her department&#039;s junior faculty &quot;what&#039;s school like today?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On Wal-Mart: Wal-Mart is not a person, however the law is framed, and does not get ethical consideration.  If you could somehow get Wal-Mart, the corporation, to sign a consent form, I&#8217;ll rethink that position.  HOWEVER, Wal-Mart &#8212; not being a person and all &#8212; is going to make for a pretty boring informant; it just sits there, hulking and silent.  I would think that any ethnography of Wal-Mart as an institution would probably involve talking to and otherwise working with it&#8217;s *employees*, who *are* entitled to consideration in things like informed consent.   The general rule in my estimation is that people should be aware that they are taking part in a research project and that they should be informed as to the nature of that project &#8212; unless there is no other way to gather important information. I think of anthropologists working with non-literate peoples who would not understand the concept of social scientific research and are told that we simply want to &#8220;tell their story&#8221; to the people back home, or the medical researcher who has to maintain some sort of control group and can&#8217;t say &#8220;this isn&#8217;t real medicine, you&#8217;re the control&#8221; &#8212; surely we&#8217;ve had enough discussion here at SM of what constitutes informed consent to know that it&#8217;s a fraught concept that acts as a guide and not a clear one at that.  I don&#8217;t find anything wrong with Ehrenreich&#8217;s approach overall &#8212; she is pretty careful with private information, and she gathers an insider&#8217;s view of the lower stretches of Wal-Mart employment that is important.  On the other hand, the anthro who went udecover as a frosh in her own school (_My Freshman Year_, I forget the author&#8217;s name)? That I have problems with, ranging from her choice of schools &#8212; doing research in  place where she has power over her subjects&#8217; futures &#8212; to the fact that there are dozens of ways similar information could be gathered, like asking her department&#8217;s junior faculty &#8220;what&#8217;s school like today?&#8221;</p>
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