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	<title>Comments on: Cognitive science, meet the angel of history</title>
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	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Camassia</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-19041</link>
		<dc:creator>Camassia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] So, the future is in front of you and the past is behind you, right? Well, maybe not. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So, the future is in front of you and the past is behind you, right? Well, maybe not. [...]
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		<title>By: ThePickards &#187; standards, accessibility, and ranting by the web chemist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Time and Tide wait for no man; and they&#8217;re going the wrong way</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-16360</link>
		<dc:creator>ThePickards &#187; standards, accessibility, and ranting by the web chemist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Time and Tide wait for no man; and they&#8217;re going the wrong way</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 22:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] And, frantically googling away into the small hours, it turns out I&#8217;m not the only one to question this either&#8230; savage minds having picked this up and pointing out that it seems like the Babylonians and the Hawaiians also shared this view of time. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] And, frantically googling away into the small hours, it turns out I&#8217;m not the only one to question this either&hellip; savage minds having picked this up and pointing out that it seems like the Babylonians and the Hawaiians also shared this view of time. [...]
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		<title>By: Savage Minds: Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog &#187; Don&#8217;t hate the player, hate the game</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-15044</link>
		<dc:creator>Savage Minds: Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog &#187; Don&#8217;t hate the player, hate the game</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] After all the player-hating that happened the last time I focused on popular reporting on anthropology&#8217;s adjacent disciplines, I&#8217;m hesitant to mention the article that&#8217;s been brought up on Livejournal and antropologi.info about an article on Anglo-Saxon apartheid in early Englands and the racial genetics that underlie it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] After all the player-hating that happened the last time I focused on popular reporting on anthropology&#8217;s adjacent disciplines, I&#8217;m hesitant to mention the article that&#8217;s been brought up on Livejournal and antropologi.info about an article on Anglo-Saxon apartheid in early Englands and the racial genetics that underlie it. [...]
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		<title>By: Jim Kusch</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11920</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Kusch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jul 2006 20:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ll write from the viewpoint of Curriculum Studies and Action Research where a debate fluorishes over &#039;reflection.&#039;  In our work in back country and urban South America, we found that perhaps action research is a catalyst that impels researchers into the unknown rather than dragging or directing them backwards.  The mirror of research does not reflect people&#039;s faces, but rather is a portal into a closer look at problems we cannot name nor ascertain.  One hope with educational research is that it would help people stop to consider,&#039;Where do I want to get to?, rather than &#039;Where do they want me to get to?&#039; However, the 2 positions, the critical and the technical, may not necessarily be in contradiction or conflict. We as academics can often simultaneously become more like the teacher we want to be as well as developing curriculum in a way that meets external demands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll write from the viewpoint of Curriculum Studies and Action Research where a debate fluorishes over &#8216;reflection.&#8217;  In our work in back country and urban South America, we found that perhaps action research is a catalyst that impels researchers into the unknown rather than dragging or directing them backwards.  The mirror of research does not reflect people&#8217;s faces, but rather is a portal into a closer look at problems we cannot name nor ascertain.  One hope with educational research is that it would help people stop to consider,&#8217;Where do I want to get to?, rather than &#8216;Where do they want me to get to?&#8217; However, the 2 positions, the critical and the technical, may not necessarily be in contradiction or conflict. We as academics can often simultaneously become more like the teacher we want to be as well as developing curriculum in a way that meets external demands.
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		<title>By: John McCreery</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11501</link>
		<dc:creator>John McCreery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jul 2006 04:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tim, thanks for the pointer to Mixing Memory. If nothing else, that is a marvelous example of scientific argument. We are shown the data (including the photographs of the gestures) and offered an alternative interpretation. Am I convinced one way or the other? Not yet.  But I&#039;ve learned something and found a place to go for more. Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, thanks for the pointer to Mixing Memory. If nothing else, that is a marvelous example of scientific argument. We are shown the data (including the photographs of the gestures) and offered an alternative interpretation. Am I convinced one way or the other? Not yet.  But I&#8217;ve learned something and found a place to go for more. Thanks again.
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11480</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jul 2006 00:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Comet Jo and Zoe - I would agree. I doubt N&amp;S or their reporters know what strategic essentialism is. The scholars that Rex cites may well be doing just that. Isn&#039;t that last line in the N&amp;S paper just a classic plaintive call though...a rare butterfly about to die.

Some might be interested to read about critics within the cog sci discipline. Chris, a &quot;cognitive pyschologist&quot; at &lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/2006/06/on_time_space_and_metaphor_1.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mixing Memory&lt;/a&gt; has a post on this. While seemingly accepting the Aymara study, he argues that there is no current evidence for time being conceptualized metaphorically through mappings onto space - because most of the experiments are circular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comet Jo and Zoe &#8211; I would agree. I doubt N&amp;S or their reporters know what strategic essentialism is. The scholars that Rex cites may well be doing just that. Isn&#8217;t that last line in the N&amp;S paper just a classic plaintive call though&#8230;a rare butterfly about to die.</p>
<p>Some might be interested to read about critics within the cog sci discipline. Chris, a &#8220;cognitive pyschologist&#8221; at <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/2006/06/on_time_space_and_metaphor_1.php" rel="nofollow">Mixing Memory</a> has a post on this. While seemingly accepting the Aymara study, he argues that there is no current evidence for time being conceptualized metaphorically through mappings onto space &#8211; because most of the experiments are circular.
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		<title>By: John McCreery</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11447</link>
		<dc:creator>John McCreery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;John: While N&amp;S do recognize the universality of concept metaphors being rooted in socially relevant experience, but the implication is that, since there metaphors are radically different, they are too.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I understand your assertion. I simply don&#039;t believe it.  The passages I cited indicate to me that the authors share the conviction of Lakoff, et.al. (see, for example, &lt;i&gt;Philosophy in the Flesh&lt;/i&gt;) that all human language use is, in origin, metaphorical and that all metaphors are ultimately grounded in shared human experiences, which are taken to be universal.  Note, in particular, the third sentence quoted above, where it is stated clearly that,

&lt;blockquote&gt;Aymara and English could be seen as basing their temporal metaphor systems on somewhat different aspects of humans’ basic embodied experience of the environment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;.

The notion that the Aymara are radically other because they use an unusual metaphor isn&#039;t at all consistent with these assumptions. Thus I infer that your reading is wrong.

Got any evidence to the contrary handy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>John: While N&amp;S do recognize the universality of concept metaphors being rooted in socially relevant experience, but the implication is that, since there metaphors are radically different, they are too.</p></blockquote>
<p>I understand your assertion. I simply don&#8217;t believe it.  The passages I cited indicate to me that the authors share the conviction of Lakoff, et.al. (see, for example, <i>Philosophy in the Flesh</i>) that all human language use is, in origin, metaphorical and that all metaphors are ultimately grounded in shared human experiences, which are taken to be universal.  Note, in particular, the third sentence quoted above, where it is stated clearly that,</p>
<blockquote><p>Aymara and English could be seen as basing their temporal metaphor systems on somewhat different aspects of humans’ basic embodied experience of the environment.</p></blockquote>
<p>.</p>
<p>The notion that the Aymara are radically other because they use an unusual metaphor isn&#8217;t at all consistent with these assumptions. Thus I infer that your reading is wrong.</p>
<p>Got any evidence to the contrary handy?
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		<title>By: Zoe</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11435</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My beef is right in front of us (pun, again, intended), and is a different &lt;i&gt;cut&lt;/i&gt; than the &lt;i&gt;others&lt;/i&gt; (double down on the pun anti).  
&lt;b&gt;Tim&lt;/b&gt;: It sounds like your making the activist case for strategic essentialism.  I agree, there is a time and a place (I’ll just let you read between the multiple meanings from now on) for that, but I don&#039;t think that this paper, or the reporting on it, are then and there.
&lt;b&gt;John&lt;/b&gt;: While N&amp;S do recognize the universality of concept metaphors being rooted in socially relevant experience, but the implication is that, since there metaphors are radically different, &lt;i&gt;they&lt;/i&gt; are too.  
My point, call it bombastic if you like, is not so much that they are wrong or that their science is bad, but rather that their framing of the study (which is kind of like what you would expect from biologist discovering a new species) is problematic and maybe even irresponsible, especially given the public attention its getting.  
I think CometJo is saying kind of the same thing, though  a bit more graciously than I would (I think its up to them to do the research, not ling anth to spoon feed it to them).  
I would also like to award CometJo the metalinguistic-allite-pun-aphor-ation of the month award for &lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;pointed them to the possibility of positioning themselves with the extensive literature on deixis generally&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Now, its a statutory holiday here in Canada, which means I get to enact the national imaginary by marking papers while drinking beer by the lake (after sitting in traffic for 4 hours).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My beef is right in front of us (pun, again, intended), and is a different <i>cut</i> than the <i>others</i> (double down on the pun anti).<br />
<b>Tim</b>: It sounds like your making the activist case for strategic essentialism.  I agree, there is a time and a place (I’ll just let you read between the multiple meanings from now on) for that, but I don&#8217;t think that this paper, or the reporting on it, are then and there.<br />
<b>John</b>: While N&amp;S do recognize the universality of concept metaphors being rooted in socially relevant experience, but the implication is that, since there metaphors are radically different, <i>they</i> are too.<br />
My point, call it bombastic if you like, is not so much that they are wrong or that their science is bad, but rather that their framing of the study (which is kind of like what you would expect from biologist discovering a new species) is problematic and maybe even irresponsible, especially given the public attention its getting.<br />
I think CometJo is saying kind of the same thing, though  a bit more graciously than I would (I think its up to them to do the research, not ling anth to spoon feed it to them).<br />
I would also like to award CometJo the metalinguistic-allite-pun-aphor-ation of the month award for<br />
<blockquote cite="">pointed them to the possibility of positioning themselves with the extensive literature on deixis generally</p></blockquote>
<p>Now, its a statutory holiday here in Canada, which means I get to enact the national imaginary by marking papers while drinking beer by the lake (after sitting in traffic for 4 hours).
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		<title>By: John McCreery</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11433</link>
		<dc:creator>John McCreery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Just Googled Eve Sweetser, who, it turns out, is a full professor in linguistics at Berkeley, with a bio that reads as follows,

&lt;blockquote&gt;Eve Sweetser
Professor

(semantics, syntax, historical linguistics, Celtic languages, speech act theory, metaphor theory, semantic change, grammaticalization, gesture)
Ph.D., Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley, 1984. Her primary research interests include historical linguistics, semantics and meaning changes, the semantics of grammatical constructions, cognitive linguistics, metaphor and iconicity, subjectivity and viewpoint, the relationship between language and gesture, and the Celtic language family. Her 1990 book, FROM ETYMOLOGY TO PRAGMATICS (Cambridge University Press), explores generalizations about synchronic and diachronic patterns of meaning in the areas of model verbs and conjunctions. She currently directs UCB’s undergraduate Cognitive Science Program and also teaches in the Celtic Studies Program. She has published articles on topics including modality, polysemy, metaphor, conditional constructions, gesture, and Medieval Welsh poetics, and has a forthcoming book on English conditional constructions co-authored with Barbara Dancygier.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Except for one thing, I would hesitate to assume that she doesn&#039;t know what she is talking about. That one thing is the information explosion, the big bang that has radically expanded the universe of possibly knowable/citable things. 

We live in a world where none of us knows more than a microscopic fraction of what there is to be known. And, while we should do more reaching out to scholars in other fields that address topics similar to our own, how many of us actually do this? How many of us now stop before writing a paper to consult the Social Science Index (or similar reference sources) to try to identify everyone who has worked on a topic similar to ours? Instead, that is, of citing people we happen to know about because we went to school with them, they happened to be included in the syllabuses of the courses we took, or they happen to be currently trendy? 

Serendipitously, I once spent a year in an AI Project where Cognitive Science, a la Roger Schank and Roger Abelson, was very much the &quot;in&quot; thing. What I observed was a bunch of very smart people, deeply aware that the programs they were trying to write would have to incorporate a lot of what they called &quot;world knowledge&quot; but, like other academics, having trouble keeping up with the literature in their own field, yet alone look elsewhere for stuff to read in their non-existent spare time. 

My sense is that we anthropologists are no better off. Would you disagree?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just Googled Eve Sweetser, who, it turns out, is a full professor in linguistics at Berkeley, with a bio that reads as follows,</p>
<blockquote><p>Eve Sweetser<br />
Professor</p>
<p>(semantics, syntax, historical linguistics, Celtic languages, speech act theory, metaphor theory, semantic change, grammaticalization, gesture)<br />
Ph.D., Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley, 1984. Her primary research interests include historical linguistics, semantics and meaning changes, the semantics of grammatical constructions, cognitive linguistics, metaphor and iconicity, subjectivity and viewpoint, the relationship between language and gesture, and the Celtic language family. Her 1990 book, FROM ETYMOLOGY TO PRAGMATICS (Cambridge University Press), explores generalizations about synchronic and diachronic patterns of meaning in the areas of model verbs and conjunctions. She currently directs UCB’s undergraduate Cognitive Science Program and also teaches in the Celtic Studies Program. She has published articles on topics including modality, polysemy, metaphor, conditional constructions, gesture, and Medieval Welsh poetics, and has a forthcoming book on English conditional constructions co-authored with Barbara Dancygier.</p></blockquote>
<p>Except for one thing, I would hesitate to assume that she doesn&#8217;t know what she is talking about. That one thing is the information explosion, the big bang that has radically expanded the universe of possibly knowable/citable things. </p>
<p>We live in a world where none of us knows more than a microscopic fraction of what there is to be known. And, while we should do more reaching out to scholars in other fields that address topics similar to our own, how many of us actually do this? How many of us now stop before writing a paper to consult the Social Science Index (or similar reference sources) to try to identify everyone who has worked on a topic similar to ours? Instead, that is, of citing people we happen to know about because we went to school with them, they happened to be included in the syllabuses of the courses we took, or they happen to be currently trendy? </p>
<p>Serendipitously, I once spent a year in an AI Project where Cognitive Science, a la Roger Schank and Roger Abelson, was very much the &#8220;in&#8221; thing. What I observed was a bunch of very smart people, deeply aware that the programs they were trying to write would have to incorporate a lot of what they called &#8220;world knowledge&#8221; but, like other academics, having trouble keeping up with the literature in their own field, yet alone look elsewhere for stuff to read in their non-existent spare time. </p>
<p>My sense is that we anthropologists are no better off. Would you disagree?
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		<title>By: Comet Jo</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11432</link>
		<dc:creator>Comet Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>bq. “Studied so far” plainly refers to languages studied in the academic/disciplinary context, a.k.a., cognitive science, with which the authors affiliate themselves. To read it as referring to all languages whatsoever is pseudo-critical nonsense.



John, the &quot;beef&quot; I think is with exactly this: the sense among cognitive scientists that nothing has ever been done before they did it.  There is an implied claim that that other people who looked at such things were doing so in an &quot;unscientific&quot; perhaps &quot;anecdotal&quot; fashion.  This is sometimes combined with a striking naivete regarding things we (anthropologists &amp; fellow travelers) take to be basic knowledge.  I&#039;ll admit that this is an interesting case, and the authors of the paper were trying to address some of what has already been said, but what if they had worked with a linguistic anthropologist who could have cautioned them against the sort of extravagant claims they made, and instead pointed them to the possibility of positioning themselves with the extensive literature on deixis generally?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bq. “Studied so far” plainly refers to languages studied in the academic/disciplinary context, a.k.a., cognitive science, with which the authors affiliate themselves. To read it as referring to all languages whatsoever is pseudo-critical nonsense.</p>
<p>John, the &#8220;beef&#8221; I think is with exactly this: the sense among cognitive scientists that nothing has ever been done before they did it.  There is an implied claim that that other people who looked at such things were doing so in an &#8220;unscientific&#8221; perhaps &#8220;anecdotal&#8221; fashion.  This is sometimes combined with a striking naivete regarding things we (anthropologists &amp; fellow travelers) take to be basic knowledge.  I&#8217;ll admit that this is an interesting case, and the authors of the paper were trying to address some of what has already been said, but what if they had worked with a linguistic anthropologist who could have cautioned them against the sort of extravagant claims they made, and instead pointed them to the possibility of positioning themselves with the extensive literature on deixis generally?
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		<title>By: Comet Jo</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Comet Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>bq. But it is probably fair to say the radical othering cuts both ways. Many of the claims about this reversal amount to that, and may well have been originally seized upon as examples of a people focussed on the past, unable to deal with the future – doomed in colonial eyes in other words. I have no evidence for this but I wouldn’t mind betting that the so called reversals were first pointed out in each case by an old-school ethnologist. That the ‘fact’ of reversal has been seized upon by post Maori- and Hawaiian- renaissance indigenous scholars as evidence of positive difference is perhaps ironic.

Perhaps the fact that the &quot;othering&quot; cuts both ways is not so much a postcolonial irony, as an indication of the limits of Said&#039;s understanding of the meaning of difference: might it not be the case that marking self and other is a fundamental human tendancy, whose political implications are dependant on the ways it is done and the meanings attached to it in particular cases?  Indeed, might not the great irony be Said&#039;s inability to imagine that difference from the European Enlightenment could ever be anything but inferiority?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bq. But it is probably fair to say the radical othering cuts both ways. Many of the claims about this reversal amount to that, and may well have been originally seized upon as examples of a people focussed on the past, unable to deal with the future – doomed in colonial eyes in other words. I have no evidence for this but I wouldn’t mind betting that the so called reversals were first pointed out in each case by an old-school ethnologist. That the ‘fact’ of reversal has been seized upon by post Maori- and Hawaiian- renaissance indigenous scholars as evidence of positive difference is perhaps ironic.</p>
<p>Perhaps the fact that the &#8220;othering&#8221; cuts both ways is not so much a postcolonial irony, as an indication of the limits of Said&#8217;s understanding of the meaning of difference: might it not be the case that marking self and other is a fundamental human tendancy, whose political implications are dependant on the ways it is done and the meanings attached to it in particular cases?  Indeed, might not the great irony be Said&#8217;s inability to imagine that difference from the European Enlightenment could ever be anything but inferiority?
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		<title>By: John McCreery</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11409</link>
		<dc:creator>John McCreery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Having read through the full introduction, I have come to the following summary  of the studies results.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Using complementary linguistic and gestural methodologies, we eventually argue that Aymara has basic time metaphors that represent a radically different metaphoric mapping from the ones commonly found in the languages around the world studied so far. Aymara thus appears to be the first well-documented case presenting a genuine fundamental difference in the organization of time construals. Interestingly, it is not difficult to find an embodied experiential motivation for these “different” metaphors; it turns out that Aymara and English could be seen as basing their temporal metaphor systems on somewhat different aspects of humans’ basic embodied experience of the environment. However, given how unusual the Aymara metaphors for time are, further questions are raised about the cultural matrix within which particular spatial experiences of time are developed and linguistically coded.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My personal conclusion is that much of our discussion has been much ado about nothing. The statement that

&lt;blockquote&gt;Aymara has basic time metaphors that represent a radically different metaphoric mapping from the ones commonly found in the languages around the world studied so far.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&quot;Studied so far&quot; plainly refers to languages studied in the academic/disciplinary context, a.k.a., cognitive science, with which the authors affiliate themselves. To read it as referring to all languages whatsoever is pseudo-critical nonsense. 

The next sentence reads,

&lt;blockquote&gt;Aymara thus appears to be the first well-documented case presenting a genuine fundamental difference in the organization of time construals.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is a potentially impeachable claim, but the evidence presented here so far is of a suggestive rather than conclusive nature. Comparable examples may be found in Chinese, Hawaiian, etc. If, however, someone knows of a comparable case that is as &quot;well-documented,&quot; providing both linguistic and videoed gestural data, as the Aymara case on which the authors focus, they haven&#039;t yet told us about it. So the claim remains unfalsified.

The third sentence in this series reads,

&lt;blockquote&gt;Interestingly, it is not difficult to find an embodied experiential motivation for these “different” metaphors; it turns out that Aymara and English could be seen as basing their temporal metaphor systems on somewhat different aspects of humans’ basic embodied experience of the environment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In other words, in presents the Aymara case as well within the range of &quot;basic embodied experience&quot; common to all humankind, rendering merely bombastic accusations that the Aymara are being treated as some kind of essentialized Other.&quot;

The conclusion that the Aymara case appears to be sufficiently unusual to raise all sorts of interesting questions is equally inoffensive.

So, dear ranters and ravers, I ask you, &quot;Where&#039;s the beef?&quot; (Pun intended)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having read through the full introduction, I have come to the following summary  of the studies results.</p>
<blockquote><p>Using complementary linguistic and gestural methodologies, we eventually argue that Aymara has basic time metaphors that represent a radically different metaphoric mapping from the ones commonly found in the languages around the world studied so far. Aymara thus appears to be the first well-documented case presenting a genuine fundamental difference in the organization of time construals. Interestingly, it is not difficult to find an embodied experiential motivation for these “different” metaphors; it turns out that Aymara and English could be seen as basing their temporal metaphor systems on somewhat different aspects of humans’ basic embodied experience of the environment. However, given how unusual the Aymara metaphors for time are, further questions are raised about the cultural matrix within which particular spatial experiences of time are developed and linguistically coded.</p></blockquote>
<p>My personal conclusion is that much of our discussion has been much ado about nothing. The statement that</p>
<blockquote><p>Aymara has basic time metaphors that represent a radically different metaphoric mapping from the ones commonly found in the languages around the world studied so far.</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;Studied so far&#8221; plainly refers to languages studied in the academic/disciplinary context, a.k.a., cognitive science, with which the authors affiliate themselves. To read it as referring to all languages whatsoever is pseudo-critical nonsense. </p>
<p>The next sentence reads,</p>
<blockquote><p>Aymara thus appears to be the first well-documented case presenting a genuine fundamental difference in the organization of time construals.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is a potentially impeachable claim, but the evidence presented here so far is of a suggestive rather than conclusive nature. Comparable examples may be found in Chinese, Hawaiian, etc. If, however, someone knows of a comparable case that is as &#8220;well-documented,&#8221; providing both linguistic and videoed gestural data, as the Aymara case on which the authors focus, they haven&#8217;t yet told us about it. So the claim remains unfalsified.</p>
<p>The third sentence in this series reads,</p>
<blockquote><p>Interestingly, it is not difficult to find an embodied experiential motivation for these “different” metaphors; it turns out that Aymara and English could be seen as basing their temporal metaphor systems on somewhat different aspects of humans’ basic embodied experience of the environment.</p></blockquote>
<p>In other words, in presents the Aymara case as well within the range of &#8220;basic embodied experience&#8221; common to all humankind, rendering merely bombastic accusations that the Aymara are being treated as some kind of essentialized Other.&#8221;</p>
<p>The conclusion that the Aymara case appears to be sufficiently unusual to raise all sorts of interesting questions is equally inoffensive.</p>
<p>So, dear ranters and ravers, I ask you, &#8220;Where&#8217;s the beef?&#8221; (Pun intended)
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11404</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry, the first part of that comment isn&#039;t very clear. In the bit before I start banging on needlessly about Hawaiian, I am referring to the examples of languages/cultures who utilise the front=past back=future metaphor that have been claimed for various parts of the world - not the Aymara case. Mostly I mean Maori, Hawaiian, and Malagassy although others have mentioned Greek, Chinese, Japanese etc.

In addition the phrase &lt;i&gt;kēia mua aku&lt;/i&gt; is not well translated. Kēia = that or this, mua = ahead, and aku = away from the speaker. The dictionaries are here http://wehewehe.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, the first part of that comment isn&#8217;t very clear. In the bit before I start banging on needlessly about Hawaiian, I am referring to the examples of languages/cultures who utilise the front=past back=future metaphor that have been claimed for various parts of the world &#8211; not the Aymara case. Mostly I mean Maori, Hawaiian, and Malagassy although others have mentioned Greek, Chinese, Japanese etc.</p>
<p>In addition the phrase <i>kēia mua aku</i> is not well translated. Kēia = that or this, mua = ahead, and aku = away from the speaker. The dictionaries are here <a href="http://wehewehe.org/" rel="nofollow">http://wehewehe.org/</a>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11399</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The determinism is one of the things I find slightly irritating too. But it is probably fair to say the radical othering cuts both ways. Many of the claims about this reversal amount to that, and may well have been originally seized upon as examples of a people focussed on the past, unable to deal with the future - doomed in colonial eyes in other words. I have no evidence for this but I wouldn&#039;t mind betting that the so called reversals were first pointed out in each case by an old-school ethnologist. That the &#039;fact&#039;  of reversal has been seized upon by post Maori- and Hawaiian- renaissance indigenous scholars as evidence of positive difference is perhaps ironic. To me the Hawaiian case for example seems no different to English when you account for the reference point (either time itself or ego). So that &#039;the past&#039; &lt;i&gt;ka wa mamua&lt;/i&gt; means &quot;time in front&quot; or &quot;time before&quot; (which incidentally is the same in  some pidgins - taem bifo) whereby the reference point is &#039;now&#039; or some other fixed point in a stream of time, rather than ego (eg: before the missionaries came - bifo kam). If today were Tuesday, English speakers might say Monday is the time before, because Monday comes before (in front of) Tuesday in the stream of time. In radiocarbon dating we refer to years &quot;before present&quot; which again is literally in front of the present, using an ego-less reference point. However in English I would never say that &quot;tomorrow is behind me&quot; because when I use myself as the reference point the past is behind and the future ahead according to conventional spatial metaphors. In Hawaiian this is also probably the case (though I am happy to be proved wrong). For example when I refer to the &quot;distant future&quot; I would use &lt;i&gt;kēia mua aku&lt;/i&gt; (according to online dictionaries!) or &quot;that which is away ahead&quot;. Would a Hawaiian ever get up in the morning and say &quot;I&#039;ve got the whole day behind me!&quot; instead of &quot;I have the whole day ahead of me!&quot;? For this is exactly what Aymara speakers appear to do. And they also continue to do it when speaking Andean Spanish in some contexts (unlike Hawaiians when speaking English?). It should be pointed out though that in Nunez and Sweetser the linguistic case for the Aymara reversal is not clear since their evidence is slight - they have to rely on gesture to &#039;prove&#039; it. And I do wonder why all of their subjects are sitting down and the effect that has had - after all the model they suggest is one of static mapping where the speaker sits still in the landscape, knowing what is in front of them (the past) but not what is behind (the future), as opposed to the moving subject model where the landscape unfolds ahead (the future) and retreats behind (the past).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The determinism is one of the things I find slightly irritating too. But it is probably fair to say the radical othering cuts both ways. Many of the claims about this reversal amount to that, and may well have been originally seized upon as examples of a people focussed on the past, unable to deal with the future &#8211; doomed in colonial eyes in other words. I have no evidence for this but I wouldn&#8217;t mind betting that the so called reversals were first pointed out in each case by an old-school ethnologist. That the &#8216;fact&#8217;  of reversal has been seized upon by post Maori- and Hawaiian- renaissance indigenous scholars as evidence of positive difference is perhaps ironic. To me the Hawaiian case for example seems no different to English when you account for the reference point (either time itself or ego). So that &#8216;the past&#8217; <i>ka wa mamua</i> means &#8220;time in front&#8221; or &#8220;time before&#8221; (which incidentally is the same in  some pidgins &#8211; taem bifo) whereby the reference point is &#8216;now&#8217; or some other fixed point in a stream of time, rather than ego (eg: before the missionaries came &#8211; bifo kam). If today were Tuesday, English speakers might say Monday is the time before, because Monday comes before (in front of) Tuesday in the stream of time. In radiocarbon dating we refer to years &#8220;before present&#8221; which again is literally in front of the present, using an ego-less reference point. However in English I would never say that &#8220;tomorrow is behind me&#8221; because when I use myself as the reference point the past is behind and the future ahead according to conventional spatial metaphors. In Hawaiian this is also probably the case (though I am happy to be proved wrong). For example when I refer to the &#8220;distant future&#8221; I would use <i>kēia mua aku</i> (according to online dictionaries!) or &#8220;that which is away ahead&#8221;. Would a Hawaiian ever get up in the morning and say &#8220;I&#8217;ve got the whole day behind me!&#8221; instead of &#8220;I have the whole day ahead of me!&#8221;? For this is exactly what Aymara speakers appear to do. And they also continue to do it when speaking Andean Spanish in some contexts (unlike Hawaiians when speaking English?). It should be pointed out though that in Nunez and Sweetser the linguistic case for the Aymara reversal is not clear since their evidence is slight &#8211; they have to rely on gesture to &#8216;prove&#8217; it. And I do wonder why all of their subjects are sitting down and the effect that has had &#8211; after all the model they suggest is one of static mapping where the speaker sits still in the landscape, knowing what is in front of them (the past) but not what is behind (the future), as opposed to the moving subject model where the landscape unfolds ahead (the future) and retreats behind (the past).
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		<title>By: Zoe</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2006/06/27/cognitive-science-meet-the-angel-of-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11385</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t know Arvind, I agree that they are emphasizing the need to look at gesture (though again, not a radical move)but I do think that they are claiming some uniqueness of Aymara and its speakers: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;The Aymara language &lt;i&gt;instead &lt;/i&gt;has a major static model of time wherein FUTURE IS BEHIND EGO and PAST IS IN FRONT OF EGO; linguistic and gestural data give strong confirmation of &lt;i&gt; this unusual culture-specific cognitive pattern&lt;/i&gt;. [my emphasis]&lt;/blockquote&gt;
In the spirit of Tim&#039;s nice disentangling, let me put it this way: There are two problems here that will not, no matter how carefully I read the paper (theirs, or the Times or Guardian), be removed from their postions embedded in my craw.

One: The overly deterministic relationship between language, cognition and culture and the bounded and homogeneous (and biological?) concept of culture implied by the above. And

Two: The radical othering that is present not only in their article but, and perhaps more problematically, in the NYT article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know Arvind, I agree that they are emphasizing the need to look at gesture (though again, not a radical move)but I do think that they are claiming some uniqueness of Aymara and its speakers: </p>
<blockquote><p>The Aymara language <i>instead </i>has a major static model of time wherein FUTURE IS BEHIND EGO and PAST IS IN FRONT OF EGO; linguistic and gestural data give strong confirmation of <i> this unusual culture-specific cognitive pattern</i>. [my emphasis]</p></blockquote>
<p>In the spirit of Tim&#8217;s nice disentangling, let me put it this way: There are two problems here that will not, no matter how carefully I read the paper (theirs, or the Times or Guardian), be removed from their postions embedded in my craw.</p>
<p>One: The overly deterministic relationship between language, cognition and culture and the bounded and homogeneous (and biological?) concept of culture implied by the above. And</p>
<p>Two: The radical othering that is present not only in their article but, and perhaps more problematically, in the NYT article.
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