Comments on: The End of Marriage http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/ Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:06:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: samuel http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-710662 samuel Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:42:30 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-710662 Men’s issues do affect women and the whole society in general: while there are misogynists and misandrists around, the majority of the population is not. I love women so much – I cant live without them – they are the fairer sex and I have a weakness for them too – but I also have a brain which can think. This is not a post to beat down women but a legitimate thought as in this highly feminist western society women support their own cause and many men support women’s cause as well. Also when a very large number of people start supporting a trend: that is shift of balance against marriage: it begs the question why: Marriage has nothing in it left for the higher income partner, and in most cases MEN, especially if the income gap is big – this is based on one way or the other some screwy laws designed against men – these include highly unfair community property (and in some states “equitable assets division”) and alimony laws. Initially these laws were designed so that the cheating partner who was identified largely as the male would deter from breakup and lose at least half of his assets and pay support for a long duration in the future so that women have their security. However statistics clearly show that 50% of the cheating spouses and even 40% of domestic violence is initiated today by women. The abuse of this law is immense as divorce is imminent and higher income partner is going to lose. And furthermore to protect the women when they are the higher income partner is “domestic violence (DV) ” and “child support (CS) ” laws – so that women when they are the higher income partners have an easy “out” or better “negotiation” most of the times if a legal battle is fought – claiming one of the 2: a frivolous case of “DV/abuse” or “CS”. Remember most (I would claim 80%+) men DO NOT have a problem in supporting children or paying for them whether they stay with them or not. This is especially if the fatherhood was willingly adopted by them and it was not a case of either forced fatherhood by trick or deception – BUT CHILD SUPPORT IS NOT DESIGNED THAT WAY – IT IS DESIGNED TO REALLY SUPPORT THE EX-WOMAN AND THE CHILD, NOT THE CHILD ALONE- so that she can survive with the child support payments. Otherwise why is their no ACCOUNTABILITY to how these child support payments are used- I myself know very many women who are using that child support money to live 20 years of their life without a job or sometimes a very small part-time/recreational/voluntary job and continue to leach on the poor dad – who gets nothing in return for 20 years of payments – only verbal abuse that he was a jerk that is why she divorced him and took away his kids. THIS IS SEVERE ABUSE OF THE LAW AND SOCIETY AND MEN. EASY WAY TO SOLVE THIS IS IF THE PARTNER WHO RECEIVES SAID MONEY HAS TO JUSTIFY WHERE THE MONEY WAS SPENT ON CHILD SUPPORT – AND IF NOT SPENT SHOULD RETURN THAT MONEY AND IF THEY MONEY IS UNFAIRLY SPENT ON THEMSELVES RATHER THAN THE CHILD THEY SHOULD BE SENT TO JAIL RATHER THAN THE DAD WHO DOESNT PAY. Further Men have no rights whatsoever in choosing whether to become a father or not – but have been burdened with duties for 18-22 years depending on where they live in the western societies. Most men would not want to voice what they are going through because of at least 4 reasons: 1. In feminist society any issues that men bring forward are met by contempt. Men are considered heroes for supporting the cause of women and complete jerks/looked down upon if they don’t or try to voice their own issues- just look at the posts of some women in response to a very legitimate posts by men – most women will not support men – but the issue is many men also do not. 2. Men traditionally are supposed to not complain or “bitch” as this post even may sound like- that is a right women proudly claim to be theirs – 3. Men have a weakness for women –they want to see the best for women and the children- even giving up everything they have and their own lives is considered the right thing to do to protect the women and child. In this highly feminist western society where women support their own cause and many men support their cause as well – while such efforts of chivalry maybe individually appreciated – a man who does not follow that chivalry norm is baulked upon – and considered selfish and jerk – with so much disrespect and disdain of men in general and every law designed against men – how do women expect any chivalry to survive in general – majority of men will become extremely insecure and highly suspicious of commitment which is the reason for decline. 4. And many men in this highly competitive society with lack of time with their constant rat race and fight amongst men themselves – find that other men are their only enemy – they lack the awareness that they are severely overburdened in social duties because of women and society – unless they themselves go through it – to discover as to how much the system is designed against them. Remember the entire society will go down – this awareness will take another 2 decades when majority men will individually realize after having gone through the pains – the pendulum certainly has swung the other way heavily in favor of women in the last 4-5 decades that some men do not have the pride and the self confidence left and some of them have gone through immense pain as to live and love has become difficult for many -explains the decline of marriage – the decline of population in western societies. Feminism and even more importantly support of feminism among men, explains not just the decline of marriage and population but also why all beggars are men (nobody would take care or support the cause of a weak man who needs help) and why men die 5-10 years earlier in “advanced societies”. Men wake up and vote for changing the laws – does not mean you hate women -stand up for what is right and dont tolerate this system. Men’s issues do affect women and the whole society in general: while there are misogynists and misandrists around, the majority of the population is not. I love women so much – I cant live without them – they are the fairer sex and I have a weakness for them too – but I also have a brain which can think. This is not a post to beat down women but a legitimate thought as in this highly feminist western society women support their own cause and many men support women’s cause as well. Also when a very large number of people start supporting a trend: that is shift of balance against marriage: it begs the question why:

Marriage has nothing in it left for the higher income partner, and in most cases MEN, especially if the income gap is big – this is based on one way or the other some screwy laws designed against men – these include highly unfair community property (and in some states “equitable assets division”) and alimony laws. Initially these laws were designed so that the cheating partner who was identified largely as the male would deter from breakup and lose at least half of his assets and pay support for a long duration in the future so that women have their security. However statistics clearly show that 50% of the cheating spouses and even 40% of domestic violence is initiated today by women. The abuse of this law is immense as divorce is imminent and higher income partner is going to lose. And furthermore to protect the women when they are the higher income partner is “domestic violence (DV) ” and “child support (CS) ” laws – so that women when they are the higher income partners have an easy “out” or better “negotiation” most of the times if a legal battle is fought – claiming one of the 2: a frivolous case of “DV/abuse” or “CS”.

Remember most (I would claim 80%+) men DO NOT have a problem in supporting children or paying for them whether they stay with them or not. This is especially if the fatherhood was willingly adopted by them and it was not a case of either forced fatherhood by trick or deception – BUT CHILD SUPPORT IS NOT DESIGNED THAT WAY – IT IS DESIGNED TO REALLY SUPPORT THE EX-WOMAN AND THE CHILD, NOT THE CHILD ALONE- so that she can survive with the child support payments. Otherwise why is their no ACCOUNTABILITY to how these child support payments are used- I myself know very many women who are using that child support money to live 20 years of their life without a job or sometimes a very small part-time/recreational/voluntary job and continue to leach on the poor dad – who gets nothing in return for 20 years of payments – only verbal abuse that he was a jerk that is why she divorced him and took away his kids.

THIS IS SEVERE ABUSE OF THE LAW AND SOCIETY AND MEN. EASY WAY TO SOLVE THIS IS IF THE PARTNER WHO RECEIVES SAID MONEY HAS TO JUSTIFY WHERE THE MONEY WAS SPENT ON CHILD SUPPORT – AND IF NOT SPENT SHOULD RETURN THAT MONEY AND IF THEY MONEY IS UNFAIRLY SPENT ON THEMSELVES RATHER THAN THE CHILD THEY SHOULD BE SENT TO JAIL RATHER THAN THE DAD WHO DOESNT PAY.

Further Men have no rights whatsoever in choosing whether to become a father or not – but have been burdened with duties for 18-22 years depending on where they live in the western societies. Most men would not want to voice what they are going through because of at least 4 reasons: 1. In feminist society any issues that men bring forward are met by contempt. Men are considered heroes for supporting the cause of women and complete jerks/looked down upon if they don’t or try to voice their own issues- just look at the posts of some women in response to a very legitimate posts by men – most women will not support men – but the issue is many men also do not.

2. Men traditionally are supposed to not complain or “bitch” as this post even may sound like- that is a right women proudly claim to be theirs –

3. Men have a weakness for women –they want to see the best for women and the children- even giving up everything they have and their own lives is considered the right thing to do to protect the women and child. In this highly feminist western society where women support their own cause and many men support their cause as well – while such efforts of chivalry maybe individually appreciated – a man who does not follow that chivalry norm is baulked upon – and considered selfish and jerk – with so much disrespect and disdain of men in general and every law designed against men – how do women expect any chivalry to survive in general – majority of men will become extremely insecure and highly suspicious of commitment which is the reason for decline.

4. And many men in this highly competitive society with lack of time with their constant rat race and fight amongst men themselves – find that other men are their only enemy – they lack the awareness that they are severely overburdened in social duties because of women and society – unless they themselves go through it – to discover as to how much the system is designed against them.

Remember the entire society will go down – this awareness will take another 2 decades when majority men will individually realize after having gone through the pains – the pendulum certainly has swung the other way heavily in favor of women in the last 4-5 decades that some men do not have the pride and the self confidence left and some of them have gone through immense pain as to live and love has become difficult for many -explains the decline of marriage – the decline of population in western societies. Feminism and even more importantly support of feminism among men, explains not just the decline of marriage and population but also why all beggars are men (nobody would take care or support the cause of a weak man who needs help) and why men die 5-10 years earlier in “advanced societies”. Men wake up and vote for changing the laws – does not mean you hate women -stand up for what is right and dont tolerate this system.

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]]> By: Bill http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-640637 Bill Mon, 19 Jul 2010 00:12:25 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-640637 I arrived at this discussion a few years late. Very interesting article. I do take exception with some of the comments, particularly John MCreery's comment "Compared with unmarried people, married men and women tend to have lower mortality, less risky behavior, more monitoring of health," Here is a different study's results: "Men's health boost from Marriage Disappearing" http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/09/mens-health-boost-from-marriage.php However I do want to address the point Oneman brought up: He hinted about our increasingly mobile information society making marriage difficult and being single more likely. My case in point: I make far more money as a consulting moving from city to city once a year than I would as an employee of a Fortune 500 company. I onlly started consulting ten years ago at the age of 41, unfortunately, and if I knew about how great this field is back at 31 I would be much further ahead and independently upper middle class by now (i.e. permanently upper middle class without having to work anymore). I have obtained fullfillment in my engineering career. As to the link in marriage, I had a non-marriage (cohabitation) the three years immediately before becoming a high tech nomad, (if you will). And this relationship crumbled at that transition point. My access to sex was greater of course in that relationship because the girlfriend held out hope that I would eventually marry her. And she knew I was averse to marriage. But I have become friends with more people coast to coast, albeit not close friends. I think I am a trendsetter. I think mobility is going to be far more important in the future, and it's going to be cross-national mobility that is important for survival of the high income lifestyle, as well as expert multi-lingual skills. As mobility becomes more important, marriage will become even less important. Having frequent sex is very costly, as it either will require marriage (and stunt your career) or it will put one in danger of contacting a STD. Being healthy and single is far better. And the article in the link I provided (or you can google "Men's health boost from marriage disappearing") indicates single men are more aware of STDs, nutrition, drug abuse, and other excesses these days than the single men a generation or two ago. And we are being more careful as a result. I arrived at this discussion a few years late. Very interesting article. I do take exception with some of the comments, particularly John MCreery’s comment “Compared with unmarried people, married men and women tend to have lower mortality, less risky behavior, more monitoring of health,”

Here is a different study’s results: “Men’s health boost from Marriage Disappearing” http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/09/mens-health-boost-from-marriage.php

However I do want to address the point Oneman brought up: He hinted about our increasingly mobile information society making marriage difficult and being single more likely. My case in point: I make far more money as a consulting moving from city to city once a year than I would as an employee of a Fortune 500 company.

I onlly started consulting ten years ago at the age of 41, unfortunately, and if I knew about how great this field is back at 31 I would be much further ahead and independently upper middle class by now (i.e. permanently upper middle class without having to work anymore). I have obtained fullfillment in my engineering career.

As to the link in marriage, I had a non-marriage (cohabitation) the three years immediately before becoming a high tech nomad, (if you will). And this relationship crumbled at that transition point. My access to sex was greater of course in that relationship because the girlfriend held out hope that I would eventually marry her. And she knew I was averse to marriage. But I have become friends with more people coast to coast, albeit not close friends. I think I am a trendsetter. I think mobility is going to be far more important in the future, and it’s going to be cross-national mobility that is important for survival of the high income lifestyle, as well as expert multi-lingual skills. As mobility becomes more important, marriage will become even less important.

Having frequent sex is very costly, as it either will require marriage (and stunt your career) or it will put one in danger of contacting a STD. Being healthy and single is far better. And the article in the link I provided (or you can google “Men’s health boost from marriage disappearing”) indicates single men are more aware of STDs, nutrition, drug abuse, and other excesses these days than the single men a generation or two ago. And we are being more careful as a result.

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]]> By: Pack Your Romantic Mind « Get a Job You Situationist!!! http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-67197 Pack Your Romantic Mind « Get a Job You Situationist!!! Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:39:02 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-67197 [...] The odd conundrum about the whole “marriage under attack” ideology is that the family values and market values held so nearly and dearly by social conservatives seem to be canceling each other out. The wild and free market of rampant consumerism is antithetical to the settled communitarian milieu in which families are commonly believed to thrive. Neither gays, feminists, communists, child-haters, nor blood-thirsty trolls are attacking marriage from the outside. The disintegration of marriage is happening from within in no small part due to the internalization of market values which place a premium on consumption and image at the expense of emotional, psychological, and spiritual well-being. More consumption has come to equal more happiness in the twisted logic of our consumer society when, in fact, quite the opposite is true, and romance is nothing but a means of compelling consumption and an act of consumption in and of itself. For an excellent examination of the how market forces are eroding marriage and family, see The End of Marriage at savageminds.org. [...] [...] The odd conundrum about the whole “marriage under attack” ideology is that the family values and market values held so nearly and dearly by social conservatives seem to be canceling each other out. The wild and free market of rampant consumerism is antithetical to the settled communitarian milieu in which families are commonly believed to thrive. Neither gays, feminists, communists, child-haters, nor blood-thirsty trolls are attacking marriage from the outside. The disintegration of marriage is happening from within in no small part due to the internalization of market values which place a premium on consumption and image at the expense of emotional, psychological, and spiritual well-being. More consumption has come to equal more happiness in the twisted logic of our consumer society when, in fact, quite the opposite is true, and romance is nothing but a means of compelling consumption and an act of consumption in and of itself. For an excellent examination of the how market forces are eroding marriage and family, see The End of Marriage at savageminds.org. [...]

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]]> By: Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams » Blog Archive » links for 2006-06-22 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-50631 Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams » Blog Archive » links for 2006-06-22 Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:53:00 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-50631 [...] Notes and Queries in Anthropology: The End of Marriage Makes similair points as the article I read in Reason magazine last night. (tags: history philosophy politics) [...] [...] Notes and Queries in Anthropology: The End of Marriage Makes similair points as the article I read in Reason magazine last night. (tags: history philosophy politics) [...]

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]]> By: Alana Post » Blog Archive » links for 2006-12-27 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-45882 Alana Post » Blog Archive » links for 2006-12-27 Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:09:46 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-45882 [...] Savage Minds: Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog » The End of Marriage (tags: anthropology marriage articles reference) [...] [...] Savage Minds: Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog » The End of Marriage (tags: anthropology marriage articles reference) [...]

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]]> By: Kathy http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-42245 Kathy Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:49:37 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-42245 Especially appreciate the discussion and the comments on function v. ritual. Especially appreciate the discussion and the comments on function v. ritual.

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]]> By: MSavage http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-37088 MSavage Sun, 29 Oct 2006 04:28:09 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-37088 A point that has always intrigued me regarding both marriage and divorce is the onset of effective, low cost, and readily accessible birth control. As a factor in the declining rate of marriage, and the increase in divorces, I would suspect that it ranks very high. Women can decide their own agenda for reproduction, and as such empower themselves as individuals. Would that not effectively change the dynamics of marriage...at least at some level? While it would comforting to assign broad motivations to what is in essence a personal choice, are we then ignoring the impact of birth control in allowing individuals to reassign the importance of marriage in their lives? A point that has always intrigued me regarding both marriage and divorce is the onset of effective, low cost, and readily accessible birth control. As a factor in the declining rate of marriage, and the increase in divorces, I would suspect that it ranks very high. Women can decide their own agenda for reproduction, and as such empower themselves as individuals. Would that not effectively change the dynamics of marriage…at least at some level?

While it would comforting to assign broad motivations to what is in essence a personal choice, are we then ignoring the impact of birth control in allowing individuals to reassign the importance of marriage in their lives?

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]]> By: Wa Salaam http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-34139 Wa Salaam Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:29:52 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-34139 <strong>Polygamy (Part 2): Social Reform and Education...</strong> Some of you whom have read my first article may wonder, what has caused this interest in polygamy? Some may have concluded this is just some Muslim’s way of spreading his culture in America. Others of you may have thought of your own reasons for ... Polygamy (Part 2): Social Reform and Education…

Some of you whom have read my first article may wonder, what has caused this interest in polygamy? Some may have concluded this is just some Muslim’s way of spreading his culture in America. Others of you may have thought of your own reasons for …

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]]> By: Heza http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-20828 Heza Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:07:46 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-20828 Thank you to Mr. McCreery and Oneman for their debate on past/present/future function of marriage. I am a 28-year old female in a healthy, committed relationship, who happened upon this site while searching Google for marriage-free topics. I often question myself what function marriage will serve me and my partner. I have no anthropological training nor strong ties to tradition, so your arguments have been quite informative and will most definitely provided an avenue for deeper discussion between my partner and I. Thank you to Mr. McCreery and Oneman for their debate on past/present/future function of marriage. I am a 28-year old female in a healthy, committed relationship, who happened upon this site while searching Google for marriage-free topics. I often question myself what function marriage will serve me and my partner. I have no anthropological training nor strong ties to tradition, so your arguments have been quite informative and will most definitely provided an avenue for deeper discussion between my partner and I.

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]]> By: I[AM] » Marriage & Commitment - A Conversation between two. http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-20653 I[AM] » Marriage & Commitment - A Conversation between two. Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:57:00 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-20653 [...] Aniroodh’s reply: “What is marriage? - I, personally, agree that it is a bonding of love and a responsibility for life. Also in the article, The end of marriage, it has been mentioned how marriage became a tradition in earlier life due to the existence of farmers and lands. The bonding will lead to the increase in the land and flourish the business. But currently, there is hardly anything of that sort at least in upper middle class families. The type of family that exist is nuclear rather than joint family. So then what is the point of marriage in today’s society? - If one is committed to the lover, then why is the ritual of marriage necessary? - There still exist a way to get out of marriage - divorce - then why create some artificial bonding which can be broken regardless. Currently, as it stands , there are divorces happening all over the place and it is increasing. Thus, marriage is just an artificial thin cover over commitment - one can call it a ‘glazed’ commitment. [...] [...] Aniroodh’s reply: “What is marriage? – I, personally, agree that it is a bonding of love and a responsibility for life. Also in the article, The end of marriage, it has been mentioned how marriage became a tradition in earlier life due to the existence of farmers and lands. The bonding will lead to the increase in the land and flourish the business. But currently, there is hardly anything of that sort at least in upper middle class families. The type of family that exist is nuclear rather than joint family. So then what is the point of marriage in today’s society? – If one is committed to the lover, then why is the ritual of marriage necessary? – There still exist a way to get out of marriage – divorce – then why create some artificial bonding which can be broken regardless. Currently, as it stands , there are divorces happening all over the place and it is increasing. Thus, marriage is just an artificial thin cover over commitment – one can call it a ‘glazed’ commitment. [...]

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]]> By: Rex http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-14523 Rex Tue, 18 Jul 2006 02:51:45 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-14523 I think we should leave the spam email above on the record as a fitting end to this thread ;!) I think we should leave the spam email above on the record as a fitting end to this thread ;!)

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]]> By: archy http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-14490 archy Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:53:32 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-14490 emotional satisfaction is very importance i think, it plays alot of works in the merriage.. it's a matter of how you assure your partner in any ways and work your love in the a meaningful idea. just like <a href="http://www.maniladreamgirls.com/filipina-single-ladies-looking-for-marriage/index.htm" rel="nofollow">Filipina ladies looking for marriage</a> they're educated about this. emotional satisfaction is very importance i think, it plays alot of works in the merriage.. it’s a matter of how you assure your partner in any ways and work your love in the a meaningful idea. just like Filipina ladies looking for marriage they’re educated about this.

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]]> By: Aquari http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-11461 Aquari Fri, 30 Jun 2006 21:14:23 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-11461 Oneman, I hope everything resolves itself okay. Best of luck. One final comment out of me, re: the narrow picture of marriage pop culture presents. A song occured to me, a single solitary counter-example, but a favourite one. <a href="http://www.dance-lyrics.com/songs/livin_on_a_prayer_2579.htm" rel="nofollow">Livin' On A Prayer</a>, by Bon Jovi. Reading over the lyrics with this discussion in mind, I couldn't help smiling. Oneman, I hope everything resolves itself okay. Best of luck.

One final comment out of me, re: the narrow picture of marriage pop culture presents. A song occured to me, a single solitary counter-example, but a favourite one. Livin’ On A Prayer, by Bon Jovi. Reading over the lyrics with this discussion in mind, I couldn’t help smiling.

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]]> By: John McCreery http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-11405 John McCreery Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:16:15 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-11405 Ouch. Take care, move safely and smoothly. The data will wait until crises are past. Me, too. Ouch. Take care, move safely and smoothly. The data will wait until crises are past. Me, too.

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]]> By: oneman http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/comment-page-2/#comment-11359 oneman Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:21:36 +0000 http://savageminds.org/2006/06/21/the-end-of-marriage/#comment-11359 John, while I could deal with the extract you posted, a series of life crises has kept me too busy to do much mroe than react the last couple of days. As it turns out, I'll be moving in 8 days, so you can imagine how little I'll be able to pursue any further research. I do hope you'll take a look back over some of the comments here -- I don't think I'm saying what you think I'm saying. I may not even be saying what *I* think I'm saying. I've already conceded a pretty serious flaw in my reasoning above -- I don't think it invalidates everything I'm saying, but it does suggest that the prediction that marriage might disappear is not a very strong one. John, while I could deal with the extract you posted, a series of life crises has kept me too busy to do much mroe than react the last couple of days. As it turns out, I’ll be moving in 8 days, so you can imagine how little I’ll be able to pursue any further research. I do hope you’ll take a look back over some of the comments here — I don’t think I’m saying what you think I’m saying. I may not even be saying what *I* think I’m saying. I’ve already conceded a pretty serious flaw in my reasoning above — I don’t think it invalidates everything I’m saying, but it does suggest that the prediction that marriage might disappear is not a very strong one.

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