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	<title>Comments on: Sex: It&#8217;s What&#8217;s for Dinner</title>
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	<description>Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog</description>
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		<title>By: dwax.org</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-178223</link>
		<dc:creator>dwax.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-178223</guid>
		<description>Sex: It&#039;s What&#039;s for Dinner...

Originally posted at Savage Minds on December 14, 2005.
...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sex: It&#8217;s What&#8217;s for Dinner&#8230;</p>
<p>Originally posted at Savage Minds on December 14, 2005.<br />
&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ThinkNaughty &#187; Sex: It&#8217;s What&#8217;s for Dinner</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2813</link>
		<dc:creator>ThinkNaughty &#187; Sex: It&#8217;s What&#8217;s for Dinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 18:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2813</guid>
		<description>[...] Originally posted at Savage Minds on December 14, 2005. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Originally posted at Savage Minds on December 14, 2005. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Avery</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2558</link>
		<dc:creator>Avery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2558</guid>
		<description>&quot; . . . I find that this really brings home the etic/emic problem.&quot;

Indeed it does. There are some situations you’re guaranteed to misinterpret if you don’t look at how ‘insiders’ interpret them. S&amp;M is definitely one of these. It’s the understanding the participants share of what they’re doing, why they’re doing it, their expectations, and the unwritten rules that govern their behaviour, that make it S&amp;M in the first place. If any of those were absent, or not shared by both participants, it would cease to be S&M; the same actions would be viewed by the same people as abuse. That fact alone should make it clear how important participant’s interpretations are in this area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; . . . I find that this really brings home the etic/emic problem.&#8221;</p>
<p>Indeed it does. There are some situations you’re guaranteed to misinterpret if you don’t look at how ‘insiders’ interpret them. S&amp;M is definitely one of these. It’s the understanding the participants share of what they’re doing, why they’re doing it, their expectations, and the unwritten rules that govern their behaviour, that make it S&amp;M in the first place. If any of those were absent, or not shared by both participants, it would cease to be S&#038;M; the same actions would be viewed by the same people as abuse. That fact alone should make it clear how important participant’s interpretations are in this area.</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2533</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2533</guid>
		<description>Oneman wrote: &quot;While to outsiders (like myself, I must admit), BDSM [. . . ]seems centered around degradation and humiliation&quot;

then:
&quot;I admit it’s hard for me to wrap my head around—I tend to feel that S&amp;M play is often about replaying the form and practice of domestic abuse is a context that makes it “ok”&quot;

It is very hard to find unbiased research on the topic of BDSM. It seems that lately (don&#039;t ask me to define lately) there has been a lot of research by sociologists and psychologists on BDSM and other alternative communities (lez, bi, trans, poly, etc). I know this not so much from reading the pertinent literature but through having participated in some of this research as an insider to one or more of these groups. One thing I can say is that the researcher&#039;s bias often shows through in the very questions that they ask. Luckily, there *are* some researchers out there who are either &quot;insiders&quot; to the communities that they study or who are extremely sympathetic. Yet others are willing to alter their questions based on the needs of the communities that they study.

Now, I&#039;m not blaming &quot;outsiders&quot; for having trouble wrapping their heads around the lifestyles and/or realities of LGBTT2IQ, BDSM, poly, etc people. However, it can be very insulting to members of a community (and I speak as a member of one or more communities that has been studied in such a way) to be told that what they *think* they&#039;re doing and feeling is not what is actually going on. I&#039;m not accusing Oneman of this by the way, I&#039;m talking about *some* researchers who do this. I&#039;m thinking, for example, of the self-identified bisexual men who were indirectly told that they were not really bisexual because they physically reacted only to men OR women. Or studies on BDSM that gave one the option of identifying as Dom or sub with no option for a switch.

I&#039;m not suggesting either that only insiders should research their own but I find that this really brings home the etic/emic problem. I think that we can easily make parallels between the difficulties involved in the study of sub/counter cultures to the difficulties experienced by an ethnographer in an unfamiliar cultural setting. What seems familiar and easy to understand suddenly isn&#039;t . . . . what would &quot;normally&quot; be interpreted as an act of violence or hatred can no longer be explained in the usual terms. There are suddenly more layers to everything that one had previously imagined.

What is nifty about all this, of course, is that what may be considered by some to be subjects more viable for sociological or psychological research can increasingly be viewed through an anthropological lens by recognising that many of the difficulties involved in cross-cultural research are present in cross-SUB/COUNTER-cultural research and that participants on these sub/counter cultures adopt or grow into a worldview that may be as different from that of the mainstream society as that of a whole other society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oneman wrote: &#8220;While to outsiders (like myself, I must admit), BDSM [. . . ]seems centered around degradation and humiliation&#8221;</p>
<p>then:<br />
&#8220;I admit it’s hard for me to wrap my head around—I tend to feel that S&amp;M play is often about replaying the form and practice of domestic abuse is a context that makes it “ok”&#8221;</p>
<p>It is very hard to find unbiased research on the topic of BDSM. It seems that lately (don&#8217;t ask me to define lately) there has been a lot of research by sociologists and psychologists on BDSM and other alternative communities (lez, bi, trans, poly, etc). I know this not so much from reading the pertinent literature but through having participated in some of this research as an insider to one or more of these groups. One thing I can say is that the researcher&#8217;s bias often shows through in the very questions that they ask. Luckily, there *are* some researchers out there who are either &#8220;insiders&#8221; to the communities that they study or who are extremely sympathetic. Yet others are willing to alter their questions based on the needs of the communities that they study.</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m not blaming &#8220;outsiders&#8221; for having trouble wrapping their heads around the lifestyles and/or realities of LGBTT2IQ, BDSM, poly, etc people. However, it can be very insulting to members of a community (and I speak as a member of one or more communities that has been studied in such a way) to be told that what they *think* they&#8217;re doing and feeling is not what is actually going on. I&#8217;m not accusing Oneman of this by the way, I&#8217;m talking about *some* researchers who do this. I&#8217;m thinking, for example, of the self-identified bisexual men who were indirectly told that they were not really bisexual because they physically reacted only to men OR women. Or studies on BDSM that gave one the option of identifying as Dom or sub with no option for a switch.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not suggesting either that only insiders should research their own but I find that this really brings home the etic/emic problem. I think that we can easily make parallels between the difficulties involved in the study of sub/counter cultures to the difficulties experienced by an ethnographer in an unfamiliar cultural setting. What seems familiar and easy to understand suddenly isn&#8217;t . . . . what would &#8220;normally&#8221; be interpreted as an act of violence or hatred can no longer be explained in the usual terms. There are suddenly more layers to everything that one had previously imagined.</p>
<p>What is nifty about all this, of course, is that what may be considered by some to be subjects more viable for sociological or psychological research can increasingly be viewed through an anthropological lens by recognising that many of the difficulties involved in cross-cultural research are present in cross-SUB/COUNTER-cultural research and that participants on these sub/counter cultures adopt or grow into a worldview that may be as different from that of the mainstream society as that of a whole other society.</p>
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		<title>By: Take me to the source of chaos, let me be the butterfly :: When I&#39;m with you, it&#39;s enough just to be alive!</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2508</link>
		<dc:creator>Take me to the source of chaos, let me be the butterfly :: When I&#39;m with you, it&#39;s enough just to be alive!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2508</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] public http://feeds.feedburner.com/savageminds?m=300http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/The connection between eating and having sex is a fairly obvious one. Many of the words we use to describe sexual desire (hunger, voracious appetite) and sex acts themselves (eating out, munching), and even various body parts (my favorite: &#8220;the split knish&#8221;) refer to food&#8212;an obvious parallel given the importance of the mouth to both eating and sex. The connection is deeper than just slang, though&#8212;Edmund Leach noted in 1964 that the way we categorize the animals we eat and the way we categorize potential sex partners are parallel as well (at least in mid-century Britain): women and animals that live in the home (sisters, dogs) are off-limits for eating and/or sex; animals and women that live outside the domestic sphere (cattle and other animals that roam more or less freely, neighbors) are potential sex and marriage partners; and the truly exotic, those living entirely outside of the familiar world altogether (emu, Africans&#8212;from a British perspective) are neither food nor sex partners. Among the Arapesh and Adelam peoples studied by Margaret Mead (1935), a man could eat neither one&#8217;s own yams and pigs nor one&#8217;s own mother and sister, while:Other people&#8217;s mothers Other people&#8217;s sisters Other people&#8217;s pigs Other people&#8217;s yams which they have piled up You may eat (Mead: 78). [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] public <a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/savageminds?m=300http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/The" rel="nofollow">http://feeds.feedburner.com/savageminds?m=300http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/The</a> connection between eating and having sex is a fairly obvious one. Many of the words we use to describe sexual desire (hunger, voracious appetite) and sex acts themselves (eating out, munching), and even various body parts (my favorite: &#8220;the split knish&#8221;) refer to food&#8212;an obvious parallel given the importance of the mouth to both eating and sex. The connection is deeper than just slang, though&#8212;Edmund Leach noted in 1964 that the way we categorize the animals we eat and the way we categorize potential sex partners are parallel as well (at least in mid-century Britain): women and animals that live in the home (sisters, dogs) are off-limits for eating and/or sex; animals and women that live outside the domestic sphere (cattle and other animals that roam more or less freely, neighbors) are potential sex and marriage partners; and the truly exotic, those living entirely outside of the familiar world altogether (emu, Africans&#8212;from a British perspective) are neither food nor sex partners. Among the Arapesh and Adelam peoples studied by Margaret Mead (1935), a man could eat neither one&#8217;s own yams and pigs nor one&#8217;s own mother and sister, while:Other people&#8217;s mothers Other people&#8217;s sisters Other people&#8217;s pigs Other people&#8217;s yams which they have piled up You may eat (Mead: 78). [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2503</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2503</guid>
		<description>The natives are obviously confused here. This is obviously a cooking fetish, not a cannibalism fetish. I blame the Food Channel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The natives are obviously confused here. This is obviously a cooking fetish, not a cannibalism fetish. I blame the Food Channel.</p>
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		<title>By: oneman</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2501</link>
		<dc:creator>oneman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 04:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2501</guid>
		<description>That would have to be some peculiar recess of my mind! No, the quote is from the article linked to under &quot;cann-fetish&quot;, which was the source for the whole post.  

As to how this is subversive, I am, of course, aware that we are confronted with a woman bound and gagged for the erotic/sexual gratification of (I assume) men. And this is, of course, problematic.  At the same time, we have the testimony of a woman who is not only willing to be displayed in this way, but *enthusiastically* embraces her objectification.  Now, I could claim &quot;false consciousness&quot; -- she&#039;s really being exploited and is brainwashed to think ti&#039;s ok.  Or I could say that she&#039;s internalized the male gaze, which has a lot of merit -- after all, a big part of the thrill for her comes from *being looked at*.  But any woman can be looked at, under virtually any condition -- think &quot;Girls Gone Wild&quot; -- so we have to wonder what it is about this particular set of conditions that is appealing to her, as opposed to flashing her chest in a club or on the street, or having sex in public, or even &quot;plain vanilla&quot; S&amp;M.  In S&amp;M in general, there is a sense that the sub -- as much as, or even more than, the dom -- is empowered by their submission.  I admit it&#039;s hard for me to wrap my head around -- I tend to feel that S&amp;M play is often about replaying the form and practice of domestic abuse is a context that makes it &quot;ok&quot; -- but this is the way several people have described their experience to me.  Add to that the parodic riffing on &quot;traditional&quot; gender roles and consumption, the ironic detachment from the images they are enacting, and I have to believe something other than mere &quot;objectification&quot; is going on.   Interestingly, a lot of subs are people who are &quot;in charge&quot; in much of their day-to-day life -- which is similar, now that I think of it, to the case of a lot of male cross-dressers.  The sense I get is of women who live their day-to-day lives at the opposite extreme from the June Cleaver pole, pushing the &quot;submissive woman&quot; role from the domain of &quot;real life&quot; into the domain of &quot;fantasy&quot;.  Just like you&#039;d never *actually* offer yourself up to be killed and eaten, you&#039;d never actually put up with the crap Betty Friedan put up with before her &quot;mystical&quot; (mystiqual?) awakening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would have to be some peculiar recess of my mind! No, the quote is from the article linked to under &#8220;cann-fetish&#8221;, which was the source for the whole post.  </p>
<p>As to how this is subversive, I am, of course, aware that we are confronted with a woman bound and gagged for the erotic/sexual gratification of (I assume) men. And this is, of course, problematic.  At the same time, we have the testimony of a woman who is not only willing to be displayed in this way, but *enthusiastically* embraces her objectification.  Now, I could claim &#8220;false consciousness&#8221; &#8212; she&#8217;s really being exploited and is brainwashed to think ti&#8217;s ok.  Or I could say that she&#8217;s internalized the male gaze, which has a lot of merit &#8212; after all, a big part of the thrill for her comes from *being looked at*.  But any woman can be looked at, under virtually any condition &#8212; think &#8220;Girls Gone Wild&#8221; &#8212; so we have to wonder what it is about this particular set of conditions that is appealing to her, as opposed to flashing her chest in a club or on the street, or having sex in public, or even &#8220;plain vanilla&#8221; S&amp;M.  In S&amp;M in general, there is a sense that the sub &#8212; as much as, or even more than, the dom &#8212; is empowered by their submission.  I admit it&#8217;s hard for me to wrap my head around &#8212; I tend to feel that S&amp;M play is often about replaying the form and practice of domestic abuse is a context that makes it &#8220;ok&#8221; &#8212; but this is the way several people have described their experience to me.  Add to that the parodic riffing on &#8220;traditional&#8221; gender roles and consumption, the ironic detachment from the images they are enacting, and I have to believe something other than mere &#8220;objectification&#8221; is going on.   Interestingly, a lot of subs are people who are &#8220;in charge&#8221; in much of their day-to-day life &#8212; which is similar, now that I think of it, to the case of a lot of male cross-dressers.  The sense I get is of women who live their day-to-day lives at the opposite extreme from the June Cleaver pole, pushing the &#8220;submissive woman&#8221; role from the domain of &#8220;real life&#8221; into the domain of &#8220;fantasy&#8221;.  Just like you&#8217;d never *actually* offer yourself up to be killed and eaten, you&#8217;d never actually put up with the crap Betty Friedan put up with before her &#8220;mystical&#8221; (mystiqual?) awakening.</p>
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		<title>By: Ozma</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2498</link>
		<dc:creator>Ozma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 03:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2498</guid>
		<description>It was a little hard to track the quotation marks in this part, but I&#039;d really like to know if this part is quoting some particular source or if it is instead a monologue from some peculiar recess of our very own Oneman&#039;s mind:

The same woman says, “It’s the same attention you give the turkey on Thanksgiving. Everybody is just obsessed with that turkey. Ooooooh, the turkey the turkey the turkey. When is the turkey going to be done? It’s so exciting!”

It sounds rather Gibletsian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was a little hard to track the quotation marks in this part, but I&#8217;d really like to know if this part is quoting some particular source or if it is instead a monologue from some peculiar recess of our very own Oneman&#8217;s mind:</p>
<p>The same woman says, “It’s the same attention you give the turkey on Thanksgiving. Everybody is just obsessed with that turkey. Ooooooh, the turkey the turkey the turkey. When is the turkey going to be done? It’s so exciting!”</p>
<p>It sounds rather Gibletsian.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2494</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 00:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2494</guid>
		<description>In what way is this kind of play actually subversive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In what way is this kind of play actually subversive?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave G.</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/12/14/sex-its-whats-for-dinner/comment-page-1/#comment-2492</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://savageminds.org/?p=330#comment-2492</guid>
		<description>I wonder if you&#039;ve seen &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eathufu.com/home.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;.  It was on the Daily Show a few weeks ago, and was apparently originally marketed to anthropology students.  Now you can play cannibal while still living up to your vegetarian ideals.  The problems with this stuff, in terms of anthropologial knowledge, are both numerous and obvious, so I&#039;ll say no more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if you&#8217;ve seen <a href="http://www.eathufu.com/home.asp" rel="nofollow">this</a>.  It was on the Daily Show a few weeks ago, and was apparently originally marketed to anthropology students.  Now you can play cannibal while still living up to your vegetarian ideals.  The problems with this stuff, in terms of anthropologial knowledge, are both numerous and obvious, so I&#8217;ll say no more.</p>
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