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		<title>By: Archaeoastronomy &#187; Why I&#8217;m not blogging on the Middle East</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/comment-page-1/#comment-18817</link>
		<dc:creator>Archaeoastronomy &#187; Why I&#8217;m not blogging on the Middle East</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] I have Jewish and Palestinian friends. None of them have any burning desire to exterminate the others, it&#8217;s a shame the opinion doesn&#8217;t seem to be spreading. Contrary to received wisdom in some quarters it is possible to criticise the Israeli offensive without being anti-semitic. Borrowing from Savage Minds, criticism of Israel&#8217;s actions in the Occupied Territories and Lebanon is only automatically anti-semitic if you think: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have Jewish and Palestinian friends. None of them have any burning desire to exterminate the others, it&#8217;s a shame the opinion doesn&#8217;t seem to be spreading. Contrary to received wisdom in some quarters it is possible to criticise the Israeli offensive without being anti-semitic. Borrowing from Savage Minds, criticism of Israel&#8217;s actions in the Occupied Territories and Lebanon is only automatically anti-semitic if you think: [...]
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		<title>By: [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/comment-page-1/#comment-2188</link>
		<dc:creator>[Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism          [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism Louis Proyect lnp3 at panix.com  Mon Nov 7 08:02:26 MST 2005  Previous message: [Marxism] (fwd from Hari Kumar) Spiked online update  Next message: [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism   Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]     http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/      Previous message: [Marxism] (fwd from Hari Kumar) Spiked online update  Next message: [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism   Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]    More information about the Marxism mailing list [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism          [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism Louis Proyect lnp3 at panix.com  Mon Nov 7 08:02:26 MST 2005  Previous message: [Marxism] (fwd from Hari Kumar) Spiked online update  Next message: [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism   Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]     <a href="http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/" rel="nofollow">http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/</a>      Previous message: [Marxism] (fwd from Hari Kumar) Spiked online update  Next message: [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism   Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]    More information about the Marxism mailing list [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%-->
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		<title>By: Marxism message, [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/comment-page-1/#comment-1999</link>
		<dc:creator>Marxism message, [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/ ________________________________________________ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text before replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism       Follow-Ups: [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
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		<title>By: oneman</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/comment-page-1/#comment-1993</link>
		<dc:creator>oneman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Max,

My basic contention, drawing on a rather extensive literature of &quot;the State&quot;, is that there are certain functions any state must accomplish in the construction of a citizenry.  Much of what we are asked to accept as &quot;Zionism&quot; -- and therefore deserving of special accomodation -- in Israel is no different from what every modern nation-state has done. 

On the question of the State Zionism: on one hand Zionism is rooted in a view of European Jews that was itself anti-Semitic; early Zionism promised the literal reform of the Jew, the transformation of weak, cowardly, over-intellectual, citified Jews into &quot;Muskeljuden&quot; (&quot;muscle Jews&quot;), and this strain of thought is fairly evident in Israeli militarism.  On the other hand, though, another strain of Zionism promised Jews a place where they could be &lt;i&gt;Jews&lt;/i&gt;, where freed of the external constraints imposed by non-Jewish oppressors, they would be free to realize their own visions of what being Jewish meant. Nation-states, however, don&#039;t need Jews, they need &quot;citizens&quot;, and Israel is no exception. So some kinds of Jews remain unacceptible, and must be &quot;converted&quot;; free practice of Judaism is no more, and maybe even less, a possibility in Israel than in the nations its people hail from.  

This is not a radical view, I hasten to add.  Most Israeli functionaries will tell you that Israel is not a Jewish state -- it simply cannot be.  Much of the population, including most (but not all) of the Bedouins I mentioned, are non-Jewish, either Muslim or Christian. Muslims sit in the Knesset -- not many, of course, but being non-Jewish is no bar to taking part in the Israeli state, and the precepts of international law and human rights demand that this be so. Israel is a secular state whose citizens just happen to be mostly Jewish; it is perhaps more accomodating of (certain kinds of ) Jewishness than other states, but that is all. And of Jewishnesses that deviate from the (imposed) standard, it is just as unforgiving as any other state, and has been since the beginning.  For instance, in order to elevate Hebrew -- a language, it must be recalled, that &lt;i&gt;nobody&lt;/i&gt; spoke in 1948 as a conversational language -- to the national language, Yiddish-speaking was punished, Yiddish presses were raided and destroyed, and so on. If we recall Weber&#039;s description of the state as defined by its use of force against both its enemies &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; its citizens, this makes perfect sense -- a state needs to simplify the complexity of its citizenry, in language as much as anything else.  But the promise of Zionism -- at least that second strain I mentioned -- was not the imposition of a particular way of being Jewish, but of freedom from imposition, the freedom for Jews to figure out their own way of being Jewish.  

So yes, I guess I am saying that &quot;State Zionism&quot; is bound to be self-contradictory. But my argument isn&#039;t so much against the particular way that Zionist identity has developed in the context of the Israeli state, but against the idea that this represents the &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; way to be Jewish, even for people &lt;i&gt;outside&lt;/i&gt; of Israel.  Prager&#039;s argument is that if I and other Americans fail to support this particular brand of Zionism, we are not only anti-Zionist (which I freely admit I am, though that&#039;s irrelevant to my point) but anti-Semitic, implying that Israel&#039;s is not only the only way to be Zionist but the only way to be &lt;i&gt;Jewish&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max,</p>
<p>My basic contention, drawing on a rather extensive literature of &#8220;the State&#8221;, is that there are certain functions any state must accomplish in the construction of a citizenry.  Much of what we are asked to accept as &#8220;Zionism&#8221; &#8212; and therefore deserving of special accomodation &#8212; in Israel is no different from what every modern nation-state has done. </p>
<p>On the question of the State Zionism: on one hand Zionism is rooted in a view of European Jews that was itself anti-Semitic; early Zionism promised the literal reform of the Jew, the transformation of weak, cowardly, over-intellectual, citified Jews into &#8220;Muskeljuden&#8221; (&#8220;muscle Jews&#8221;), and this strain of thought is fairly evident in Israeli militarism.  On the other hand, though, another strain of Zionism promised Jews a place where they could be <i>Jews</i>, where freed of the external constraints imposed by non-Jewish oppressors, they would be free to realize their own visions of what being Jewish meant. Nation-states, however, don&#8217;t need Jews, they need &#8220;citizens&#8221;, and Israel is no exception. So some kinds of Jews remain unacceptible, and must be &#8220;converted&#8221;; free practice of Judaism is no more, and maybe even less, a possibility in Israel than in the nations its people hail from.  </p>
<p>This is not a radical view, I hasten to add.  Most Israeli functionaries will tell you that Israel is not a Jewish state &#8212; it simply cannot be.  Much of the population, including most (but not all) of the Bedouins I mentioned, are non-Jewish, either Muslim or Christian. Muslims sit in the Knesset &#8212; not many, of course, but being non-Jewish is no bar to taking part in the Israeli state, and the precepts of international law and human rights demand that this be so. Israel is a secular state whose citizens just happen to be mostly Jewish; it is perhaps more accomodating of (certain kinds of ) Jewishness than other states, but that is all. And of Jewishnesses that deviate from the (imposed) standard, it is just as unforgiving as any other state, and has been since the beginning.  For instance, in order to elevate Hebrew &#8212; a language, it must be recalled, that <i>nobody</i> spoke in 1948 as a conversational language &#8212; to the national language, Yiddish-speaking was punished, Yiddish presses were raided and destroyed, and so on. If we recall Weber&#8217;s description of the state as defined by its use of force against both its enemies <i>and</i> its citizens, this makes perfect sense &#8212; a state needs to simplify the complexity of its citizenry, in language as much as anything else.  But the promise of Zionism &#8212; at least that second strain I mentioned &#8212; was not the imposition of a particular way of being Jewish, but of freedom from imposition, the freedom for Jews to figure out their own way of being Jewish.  </p>
<p>So yes, I guess I am saying that &#8220;State Zionism&#8221; is bound to be self-contradictory. But my argument isn&#8217;t so much against the particular way that Zionist identity has developed in the context of the Israeli state, but against the idea that this represents the <i>only</i> way to be Jewish, even for people <i>outside</i> of Israel.  Prager&#8217;s argument is that if I and other Americans fail to support this particular brand of Zionism, we are not only anti-Zionist (which I freely admit I am, though that&#8217;s irrelevant to my point) but anti-Semitic, implying that Israel&#8217;s is not only the only way to be Zionist but the only way to be <i>Jewish</i>.
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		<title>By: Kerim</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/comment-page-1/#comment-1990</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fellow Temple grad, Jason Greenberg Motamedi wrote his dissertation about Bedouins and Mizrahim (Saphardic) Jews, comparing the different ways in which these groups are intergrated into the bottom rungs of Israeli society:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://motamedi.info/wordindex.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ABSTRACT&lt;/a&gt;

The dissertation itself is &lt;a href=&quot;http://motamedi.info/word/Servant.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; [PDF].

He also has some nice pictures from his fieldwork &lt;a href=&quot;http://motamedi.info/photoindex.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fellow Temple grad, Jason Greenberg Motamedi wrote his dissertation about Bedouins and Mizrahim (Saphardic) Jews, comparing the different ways in which these groups are intergrated into the bottom rungs of Israeli society:</p>
<p><a href="http://motamedi.info/wordindex.html" rel="nofollow">ABSTRACT</a></p>
<p>The dissertation itself is <a href="http://motamedi.info/word/Servant.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a> [PDF].</p>
<p>He also has some nice pictures from his fieldwork <a href="http://motamedi.info/photoindex.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.
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		<title>By: [Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/comment-page-1/#comment-1989</link>
		<dc:creator>[Marxism] Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Sender: marxism-bounces@lists.econ.utah.edu        http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/ ________________________________________________ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text before replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
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		<title>By: Louis Proyect</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/comment-page-1/#comment-1988</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis Proyect</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is one of the best introductions to the question of Zionism that I have seen. I will circulate it.

Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is one of the best introductions to the question of Zionism that I have seen. I will circulate it.</p>
<p>Thanks
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://savageminds.org/2005/11/06/286/comment-page-1/#comment-1986</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks so much for this post...

&quot;Then you have to accept that Israel is not only the best but the only possible realization of Zionism, so that to oppose Israel is to oppose Zionism.&quot;

This is a problem I&#039;ve felt a lot while reading (admittedly not profoundly or widely) about all of this. In particular Said seems to consistently miss it, such as in &#039;The End of the Peace Process&#039;. 

where I don&#039;t follow you is here:

&quot;In its treatment of Sephardic Jews, Russian Jews, Bedouins, and others, Israel is not acting as a Zionist state, but merely as a state. Like other states, Israel has a need to make its population &quot;legible&quot;...&quot;

and then this:

&quot;As official policy of the state, Zionism functions not as an ideology promoting the free expression of Judaism, but as a tool for the creation of citizens of the state.&quot;

Wouldn&#039;t that be a Zion-ist- (Zionistic?) state, then? 

Are you saying that State Zionism is metaphysically incapable of being authentic, of really being what it claims to be(&#039;false&#039;?). 

Or is it the point that the contestation of the state is itself metaphysical? 

Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for this post&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Then you have to accept that Israel is not only the best but the only possible realization of Zionism, so that to oppose Israel is to oppose Zionism.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a problem I&#8217;ve felt a lot while reading (admittedly not profoundly or widely) about all of this. In particular Said seems to consistently miss it, such as in &#8216;The End of the Peace Process&#8217;. </p>
<p>where I don&#8217;t follow you is here:</p>
<p>&#8220;In its treatment of Sephardic Jews, Russian Jews, Bedouins, and others, Israel is not acting as a Zionist state, but merely as a state. Like other states, Israel has a need to make its population &#8220;legible&#8221;&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>and then this:</p>
<p>&#8220;As official policy of the state, Zionism functions not as an ideology promoting the free expression of Judaism, but as a tool for the creation of citizens of the state.&#8221;</p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t that be a Zion-ist- (Zionistic?) state, then? </p>
<p>Are you saying that State Zionism is metaphysically incapable of being authentic, of really being what it claims to be(&#8216;false&#8217;?). </p>
<p>Or is it the point that the contestation of the state is itself metaphysical? </p>
<p>Just a thought.
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