Comments on: Autistic Culture: celebrating neurodiversity http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/ Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog Tue, 22 May 2012 19:00:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Rick http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-628984 Rick Sat, 06 Mar 2010 23:54:45 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-628984 Wouldn't it be for for the same reason that people either invoke or deny claims of ethnicity, often switching ethnic identities throughout the day, similar to code switching. Such things most like have more to do with how they align themselves with individuals' "projects" (Otner's term), than with any mutually agreed upon reality. Such things are "authentic" if someone says it is, just like anything else. Psychologists will usually tell you that mental disorder categories are simply arbitrary categories on a sliding scale. So, the distinction of who is in and out depends more on whether a psychiatrist is a lumper or a splitter, and whether any autistic individual either helps or hurts any other's agenda. This is actually testable using regression techniques. Maybe, someone should do it. Wouldn’t it be for for the same reason that people either invoke or deny claims of ethnicity, often switching ethnic identities throughout the day, similar to code switching.
Such things most like have more to do with how they align themselves with individuals’ “projects” (Otner’s term), than with any mutually agreed upon reality. Such things are “authentic” if someone says it is, just like anything else. Psychologists will usually tell you that mental disorder categories are simply arbitrary categories on a sliding scale. So, the distinction of who is in and out depends more on whether a psychiatrist is a lumper or a splitter, and whether any autistic individual either helps or hurts any other’s agenda.
This is actually testable using regression techniques. Maybe, someone should do it.

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]]> By: mannie http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-628981 mannie Sat, 06 Mar 2010 22:15:44 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-628981 Neurodiversity is great and all, but the real question is if this movement is authentic, in regards to their stance on accepting people for who they are on spectrum...how do they explain autism cases like seen on You Tube under "autism self injury" or "autism seizures" or "portrait of autistic student with self injurious behavior" or "autism epidemic out of control" ....why doesn't the neurodiversity movement talk about this side of autism spectrum disorder? WHY? There is something very very wrong with the fact they don't. Neurodiversity is great and all, but the real question is if this movement is authentic, in regards to their stance on accepting people for who they are on spectrum…how do they explain autism cases like seen on You Tube under “autism self injury” or “autism seizures” or “portrait of autistic student with self injurious behavior” or “autism epidemic out of control” ….why doesn’t the neurodiversity movement talk about this side of autism spectrum disorder? WHY? There is something very very wrong with the fact they don’t.

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]]> By: Rich Shull http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-3974 Rich Shull Sat, 04 Mar 2006 22:37:31 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-3974 Autism's Forgotton working past. It is very hard to believe but Autism has been figured out and the thought process has NEVER been in print before. A group of unadmitted autisitcs ranging in age form teenagers to 80 years old has met online (worldwide internet Anthropology) to discover our double blind experiements in autism have yielded a thought process and a life style not ever in print before. When We think our OPTIC vision is turned OFF (as is the hearing at times) and in effect we think with your daydreams. We convert those day dreams to words speech or actions. We know each other online by our picture thought ,keen senses ,preferance to be alone and indeed a Pain tolerance. Proficient picture thought we learned on our own by trial and error we seem to be the builiding blocks of traditional thought. Perhaps some day we might be seen as the living missing link in evolution? We have a long way to go however, despite being Autisms BEST functioing population modern Rain Man Autism will not admit to us as we unintentionally deflate the autism of today. Second 95% of us are GLBT and no GLBT population could ever be admitted to in autism circles. Plese look at the blog Http://http://prerainmanautism.blogspot.com for more. Look up Alan Turing 1912-1953 on the Web to seen old working autism in action! Rich Shull Author Autism Pre Rain Man Autism ,inventor of the Turing Motor a 70 % efficient, green car motor. Autism’s Forgotton working past.
It is very hard to believe but Autism has been figured out and the thought process has NEVER been in print before. A group of unadmitted autisitcs ranging in age form teenagers to 80 years old has met online (worldwide internet Anthropology) to discover our double blind experiements in autism have yielded a thought process and a life style not ever in print before. When We think our OPTIC vision is turned OFF (as is the hearing at times) and in effect we think with your daydreams. We convert those day dreams to words speech or actions.

We know each other online by our picture thought ,keen senses ,preferance to be alone and indeed a Pain tolerance. Proficient picture thought we learned on our own by trial and error we seem to be the builiding blocks of traditional thought. Perhaps some day we might be seen as the living missing link in evolution? We have a long way to go however, despite being Autisms BEST functioing population modern Rain Man Autism will not admit to us as we unintentionally deflate the autism of today. Second 95% of us are GLBT and no GLBT population could ever be admitted to in autism circles.

Plese look at the blog Http://http://prerainmanautism.blogspot.com for more.

Look up Alan Turing 1912-1953 on the Web to seen old working autism in action! Rich Shull Author Autism Pre Rain Man Autism ,inventor of the Turing Motor a 70 % efficient, green car motor.

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]]> By: neurodiversity.com | sociology of deviance & disability http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1835 neurodiversity.com | sociology of deviance & disability Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:42:23 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1835 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] ntal health problems in youngsters to divorce and family breakdown. Sarah Womack Autistic Culture: celebrating neurodiversity [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] ntal health problems in youngsters to divorce and family breakdown.

Sarah Womack

Autistic Culture: celebrating neurodiversity [...]

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]]> By: Doyle Saylor http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1316 Doyle Saylor Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:39:13 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1316 Nancy writes, So you mean that Disabled Rights in general is mostly geared toward “physical disabilities” and is uninclusive of “cognitive disabilities”? Doyle, Yes that is correct. Disability Rights has attempted to address the issue, but the technical problems are difficult to account for. There is a lot of jargon and formulas for describing different sorts of cognitive disabilities. But let's take some extremes, schizophrenia, and developmental disabilities. Autism in lumped into DD's (Developmental Disabilities), but deserves to be considered on it's own. What does Schizophrenia rights mean in relation to Neurodiversity? With Autism, we sort of know that emotion structure that most 'able-bodied' people have is one difference between them and Autistics. The face based transmission of information between parent and child is affected in Autistics in theory. This suggests some way to understand neuro-diversity. And Schizophrenia? The issue is in my view how Disability Rights might have a big impact upon global culture by opening us up to distinctions only vaguely understood in terms of mental regimes. Another Disability is Dyslexia. Basically, some researchers think that is some 'impairment' of motion detection. The importance of this is that vision is dual in nature. Two basically distinct channels with different evolutionary histories. One sees motion the other is tuned to see inanimate landscapes. http://www.bbsonline.org/documents/a/00/00/05/11/ This now appears to be a major symptom of Alzheimers (motion blindness), and in some people with Migraines. What sort of information is being carried cognitively? When we research cultures, how do we understand these subtle cultural forces in human society? That's where Disability Rights faces some high obstacles in terms of understanding the 'cognitive' rights. But at the same time seems to shed a light upon areas of human development not really seriously considered before. Going back to Autism. If it is a normal variant, meaning that when language is not the resource most humans use to think with, then all the brain power can shift in other cognitive directions. What does that imply in terms of say a global civilization? thanks, Doyle Saylor Nancy writes,
So you mean that Disabled Rights in general is mostly geared toward “physical disabilities” and is uninclusive of “cognitive disabilities”?

Doyle,
Yes that is correct. Disability Rights has attempted to address the issue, but the technical problems are difficult to account for. There is a lot of jargon and formulas for describing different sorts of cognitive disabilities. But let’s take some extremes, schizophrenia, and developmental disabilities. Autism in lumped into DD’s (Developmental Disabilities), but deserves to be considered on it’s own.

What does Schizophrenia rights mean in relation to Neurodiversity? With Autism, we sort of know that emotion structure that most ‘able-bodied’ people have is one difference between them and Autistics. The face based transmission of information between parent and child is affected in Autistics in theory. This suggests some way to understand neuro-diversity. And Schizophrenia?

The issue is in my view how Disability Rights might have a big impact upon global culture by opening us up to distinctions only vaguely understood in terms of mental regimes. Another Disability is Dyslexia. Basically, some researchers think that is some ‘impairment’ of motion detection. The importance of this is that vision is dual in nature. Two basically distinct channels with different evolutionary histories. One sees motion the other is tuned to see inanimate landscapes. http://www.bbsonline.org/documents/a/00/00/05/11/

This now appears to be a major symptom of Alzheimers (motion blindness), and in some people with Migraines. What sort of information is being carried cognitively?

When we research cultures, how do we understand these subtle cultural forces in human society? That’s where Disability Rights faces some high obstacles in terms of understanding the ‘cognitive’ rights. But at the same time seems to shed a light upon areas of human development not really seriously considered before.

Going back to Autism. If it is a normal variant, meaning that when language is not the resource most humans use to think with, then all the brain power can shift in other cognitive directions. What does that imply in terms of say a global civilization?
thanks,
Doyle Saylor

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]]> By: Ozma http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1293 Ozma Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:37:15 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1293 Wow -- I am coming to this one a bit late but right on! A few years ago I saw a research proposal by a linguistic anthropologist who was proposing to observe autistic children as sort of the zero-level of social communication. It was presented in this very common-sensical way that was reminiscent of the way "primitive man" used to be used as a "minus-model" of humanity. that is, if only one could find some test population free of the frou-frou of modernity, civilization, whatever, one could figure out what human beings were basically all about. Here the autistic kids were proposed as just such a "minus model" of humanity: by looking at their putatively stripped-down version of what it is to be a social human being, one could locate some of the (fixed) parameters of humanity. This minus-model is one I think is going to be coming up *a lot* more (deja vu all over again) in studies of people with different kinds of genetic differences. Anthropologists, I agree, are well-positioned (because of their disciplinary history) to point out the problems (moral, logical, evidential, etc.) of these "minus models" as "natural experiments" about what it means to be "fully human". (whoa, that was loaded with scare quotes -- but the prospects are scary!). Wow — I am coming to this one a bit late but right on! A few years ago I saw a research proposal by a linguistic anthropologist who was proposing to observe autistic children as sort of the zero-level of social communication. It was presented in this very common-sensical way that was reminiscent of the way “primitive man” used to be used as a “minus-model” of humanity. that is, if only one could find some test population free of the frou-frou of modernity, civilization, whatever, one could figure out what human beings were basically all about. Here the autistic kids were proposed as just such a “minus model” of humanity: by looking at their putatively stripped-down version of what it is to be a social human being, one could locate some of the (fixed) parameters of humanity. This minus-model is one I think is going to be coming up *a lot* more (deja vu all over again) in studies of people with different kinds of genetic differences. Anthropologists, I agree, are well-positioned (because of their disciplinary history) to point out the problems (moral, logical, evidential, etc.) of these “minus models” as “natural experiments” about what it means to be “fully human”. (whoa, that was loaded with scare quotes — but the prospects are scary!).

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]]> By: Nancy http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1285 Nancy Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:07:58 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1285 Kathleen; Thanks for those great links! I'm particularly interested in the move toward the greater inclusion of autistic people in policies about autism. I've read about that before and I can imagine the struggle against institutions that somehow think that others would know better than autistic people themselves about what's best for them. I'll be keeping track of this blog. Kathleen;

Thanks for those great links! I’m particularly interested in the move toward the greater inclusion of autistic people in policies about autism. I’ve read about that before and I can imagine the struggle against institutions that somehow think that others would know better than autistic people themselves about what’s best for them.

I’ll be keeping track of this blog.

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]]> By: Nancy http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1284 Nancy Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:03:35 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1284 Doyle Saylor wrote: "There was a similar move in economics to refer to Autistic Economics and a journal in France follows a line about the mathematical orientation of mainstream economics is autistic." This got me curious so I googled the term "autistic economics" and found this: http://www.jape.org/jape50_rankin.pdf. The similarity between the above-mentioned analgies is glaring: "The charge is that (neoclassical)economics as a discipline is unduly detached from the real world. Ratherthan engage in the pursuit of open-minded learning about reality, as othersciences and social sciences purport to do, neoclassical economicswithdraws into an abstract world defined by its own assumptions." Regarding: "As to Autistic pride, as a disability issue it goes deeper than gay pride. The presumption that able bodied cognition is understood or correct is what is challenged by Autistic persons claiming an alternate cognition." I wouldn't necessarily say that the movements are exactly the same but I would say that there are parallels between them. For instance, on both parts there is a desire for social recognition that what is regarded by the mainstream as "normal" or "natural" is limiting to many and ignores other ways of being. In the case of queer pride, we're talking about other ways of being sexual and/or of being gendered. In the case of Autistic Pride, I would imagine that we're talking about ways of perceiving and/or ways of relating? One major difference between the movements, I think, is the kinds of resistance that they face. In the case of queers, the main form of resistance is the old "it's a choice and you will all go to hell for making it" thing. In the case of autism, perhaps the main form of resistance is plain old ignorance and misrepresentation? Or would you say it's something else instead of or in addition to this? I'm not sure whether I correctly understand this statement: "In a broader sense Disabled Rights has not got it’s arms around Cognitive Rights." So you mean that Disabled Rights in general is mostly geared toward "physical disabilities" and is uninclusive of "cognitive disabilities"? Thanks for the input! Doyle Saylor wrote:

“There was a similar move in economics to refer to Autistic Economics and a journal in France follows a line about the mathematical orientation of mainstream economics is autistic.”

This got me curious so I googled the term “autistic economics” and found this: http://www.jape.org/jape50_rankin.pdf. The similarity between the above-mentioned analgies is glaring:

“The charge is that (neoclassical)economics as a discipline is unduly detached from the real world. Ratherthan engage in the pursuit of open-minded learning about reality, as othersciences and social sciences purport to do, neoclassical economicswithdraws into an abstract world defined by its own assumptions.”

Regarding: “As to Autistic pride, as a disability issue it goes deeper than gay pride. The presumption that able bodied cognition is understood or correct is what is challenged by Autistic persons claiming an alternate cognition.”

I wouldn’t necessarily say that the movements are exactly the same but I would say that there are parallels between them. For instance, on both parts there is a desire for social recognition that what is regarded by the mainstream as “normal” or “natural” is limiting to many and ignores other ways of being. In the case of queer pride, we’re talking about other ways of being sexual and/or of being gendered. In the case of Autistic Pride, I would imagine that we’re talking about ways of perceiving and/or ways of relating?

One major difference between the movements, I think, is the kinds of resistance that they face. In the case of queers, the main form of resistance is the old “it’s a choice and you will all go to hell for making it” thing. In the case of autism, perhaps the main form of resistance is plain old ignorance and misrepresentation? Or would you say it’s something else instead of or in addition to this?

I’m not sure whether I correctly understand this statement: “In a broader sense Disabled Rights has not got it’s arms around Cognitive Rights.”

So you mean that Disabled Rights in general is mostly geared toward “physical disabilities” and is uninclusive of “cognitive disabilities”?

Thanks for the input!

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]]> By: Kathleen Seidel http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1282 Kathleen Seidel Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:27:07 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1282 This subject is one of my preoccupations, and I am very glad to see more discussion of it in anthropological circles. You might be interested to read several recent posts from my blog, including <a href="http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/27/autism-as-metaphor" rel="nofollow">Autism as Metaphor and Insult</a>, <a href="http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/26/autistic-people-speaking-about-autism" rel="nofollow">Autistic People Speaking About Autism</a>, <a href="http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/34/autistic-distinction" rel="nofollow">The Autistic Distinction</a>, <a href="http://neurodiversity.com/autobiography.html" rel="nofollow">Autistic Autobiography Online</a>, <a href="http://www.neurodiversity.com/neurodiversity.html" rel="nofollow">Neurodiversity: The Concept</a>, <a href="http://www.neurodiversity.com/advocacy.html" rel="nofollow">Autistic Advocacy</a>, and many of the other link collections at <a href="http://www.neurodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.neurodiversity.com</a>. This subject is one of my preoccupations, and I am very glad to see more discussion of it in anthropological circles. You might be interested to read several recent posts from my blog, including Autism as Metaphor and Insult, Autistic People Speaking About Autism, The Autistic Distinction, Autistic Autobiography Online, Neurodiversity: The Concept, Autistic Advocacy, and many of the other link collections at http://www.neurodiversity.com.

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]]> By: Kathleen Seidel http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1281 Kathleen Seidel Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:21:51 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1281 This subject is one of my life's preoccupations, and I am very glad to see more discussion of it in anthropological circles. You might be interested to read several recent posts from my blog, including "Autism as Metaphor and Insult":http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/27/autism-as-metaphor, "Autistic People Speaking About Autism":http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/26/autistic-people-speaking-about-autism, "The Autistic Distinction":http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/34/autistic-distinction, "Autistic Autobiography Online":http://neurodiversity.com/autobiography.html many of the other link collections at "http://www.neurodiversity.com":http://www.neurodiversity.com This subject is one of my life’s preoccupations, and I am very glad to see more discussion of it in anthropological circles. You might be interested to read several recent posts from my blog, including “Autism as Metaphor and Insult”:http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/27/autism-as-metaphor, “Autistic People Speaking About Autism”:http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/26/autistic-people-speaking-about-autism, “The Autistic Distinction”:http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/34/autistic-distinction, “Autistic Autobiography Online”:http://neurodiversity.com/autobiography.html many of the other link collections at “http://www.neurodiversity.com”:http://www.neurodiversity.com

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]]> By: Doyle Saylor http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1278 Doyle Saylor Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:48:21 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1278 There was a similar move in economics to refer to Autistic Economics and a journal in France follows a line about the mathematical orientation of mainstream economics is autistic. As to Autistic pride, as a disability issue it goes deeper than gay pride. The presumption that able bodied cognition is understood or correct is what is challenged by Autistic persons claiming an alternate cognition. In a broader sense Disabled Rights has not got it's arms around Cognitive Rights. That requires serious study of nerudiversity. thanks, Doyle Saylor There was a similar move in economics to refer to Autistic Economics and a journal in France follows a line about the mathematical orientation of mainstream economics is autistic.

As to Autistic pride, as a disability issue it goes deeper than gay pride. The presumption that able bodied cognition is understood or correct is what is challenged by Autistic persons claiming an alternate cognition. In a broader sense Disabled Rights has not got it’s arms around Cognitive Rights. That requires serious study of nerudiversity.
thanks,
Doyle Saylor

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]]> By: Nancy http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1272 Nancy Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:01:58 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1272 Thanks for the comments guys. I do think that anthropologists could contribute a lot to the understanding of various phenomena that have until recently been strictly the domain of psychology. The contexts within which psychologists usually study things such as autism, asperger's and so forth are North American/Western European and I don't think we should assume that the realities of auties and aspies are the same everywhere. Jeremy: thanks a lot for the links! I will make sure to look through them. Patrick: thanks for the reference. I knew I had seen that "male brain" thing somewhere. Not that I agreed with it. Thanks for the comments guys. I do think that anthropologists could contribute a lot to the understanding of various phenomena that have until recently been strictly the domain of psychology. The contexts within which psychologists usually study things such as autism, asperger’s and so forth are North American/Western European and I don’t think we should assume that the realities of auties and aspies are the same everywhere.

Jeremy: thanks a lot for the links! I will make sure to look through them.

Patrick: thanks for the reference. I knew I had seen that “male brain” thing somewhere. Not that I agreed with it.

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]]> By: Patrick http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1271 Patrick Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:46:19 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1271 The citation for the male brain is: Baron-Cohen, S. (2002). The extreme male brain theory of autism. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 6(6), 248-54. It's quite controversial and very interesting to read. I have a 4-year-old son with PDD who is one of the greatest people I know. Your question about the cross-cultural perceptions of austism is very interesting...something worth looking into for sure. The citation for the male brain is:

Baron-Cohen, S. (2002). The extreme male brain theory of autism. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 6(6), 248-54.

It’s quite controversial and very interesting to read. I have a 4-year-old son with PDD who is one of the greatest people I know.

Your question about the cross-cultural perceptions of austism is very interesting…something worth looking into for sure.

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]]> By: Jeremy Price http://savageminds.org/2005/08/25/autistic-culture-celebrating-neurodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-1270 Jeremy Price Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:37:44 +0000 http://savageminds.org/?p=194#comment-1270 Thank you for this excellent and important post. The intersection between anthropology and “disabilities” is a fascinating (and underutilized) mode of inquiry. In <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_cult/culturedisability.html" rel="nofollow">Culture as Disability</a>, McDermott and Varenne examine some of the same questions you raise, although not about the autism spectrum specifically. The <a href="http://isnt.autistics.org/" rel="nofollow">Institute for the Study of the Neurologically Typical</a> is a must visit for anyone interested in autistic culture; as someone who could be classified as “NT,” reading the pages on this site was humbling and instructive. Thank you for this excellent and important post. The intersection between anthropology and “disabilities” is a fascinating (and underutilized) mode of inquiry. In Culture as Disability, McDermott and Varenne examine some of the same questions you raise, although not about the autism spectrum specifically. The Institute for the Study of the Neurologically Typical is a must visit for anyone interested in autistic culture; as someone who could be classified as “NT,” reading the pages on this site was humbling and instructive.

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